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SamuraiBlue

Captain
Yes, higher accuracy and resolution, as long as the weather is sunny. The sensitivity of C-band to weather makes it the favorite choice for weather radars.
For short and medium range, I agree C-band radars should work fine. But it also limits the 6800 tonnes Akizuki class with limited long range search and tracking capability, no long range area defense capability (which all modern air defense ships of similar tonnage have). Even the much smaller 054A got a mast mounted S-band radar.
The bigger problem is that having invested in the development of the C-band radar, Japan is left with an alternative domestic search radar. The Aegis destroyers are the only modern Japanese warship with decent long range search radars. Even the no-a-carrier Izumo-class have to settle with the C-band radar. An aviation ship without a decent long range radar is laughable.

It seems as if you are placing faith in an urban myth. S-band does not lose all viability under rain. Moisture does absorbs this certain wave length but it doesn't go entirely black under a drizzle. It's more to do with the amount of rain and how strong the power outage is. (If C-Band is completely useless under adverse weather conditions then all cell phones and open satellite communications would be useless since this is the band width it utilizes.)

FCS-3 is an Active Phased Array Radar(APAR) with stronger power outage compared to AN/SPY-1, a Passive Phased Array Radar(PPAR). The reason why the US navy selected S-band is because of the technological difficulties of developing an APAR in the early 70's.

Another point is practicality even if you are able to monitor a distance of over 400Km, neither SM-2,SM-6 or ESSM has that much range to engage a target. (The illuminators utilizing X-band has an even shorter range)
So monitoring is just that monitoring without the capability of engaging.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Yes, higher accuracy and resolution, as long as the weather is sunny.
Actually, this is not so.

Even the no-a-carrier Izumo-class have to settle with the C-band radar. An aviation ship without a decent long range radar is laughable.
Well, I will be willing to bet you that not a single military planner for the PLAN, the Russian Navy, the Korans, or anyone else for that matter would consider either the Hyuga Class or the IUzumo class "laughable."

Such a contention itself borders on that term IMHO.

Both classes are very capable vessels with very strong ASuW and good air-assault capabilities. They also are very well suited for their own self defense and flag-ship duties...not to mention humanitarian efforts which is, of course secondary.
 

shen

Senior Member
It seems as if you are placing faith in an urban myth. S-band does not lose all viability under rain. Moisture does absorbs this certain wave length but it doesn't go entirely black under a drizzle. It's more to do with the amount of rain and how strong the power outage is. (If C-Band is completely useless under adverse weather conditions then all cell phones and open satellite communications would be useless since this is the band width it utilizes.)

I didn't say the C-band radar would be completely useless. It would be more degraded by weather than a S-band radar.

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Look at that chart to see how much more C-band is degraded compare to S-band.

C-band radar is more common for land based purpose in cooler climate such as Europe. But when you consider the high moisture environment of the ocean and that warships have to deploy in various regions including the tropics, it is easy to see why no other navy in the world has picked C-band for their primary search radar.

FCS-3 is an Active Phased Array Radar(APAR) with stronger power outage compared to AN/SPY-1, a Passive Phased Array Radar(PPAR). The reason why the US navy selected S-band is because of the technological difficulties of developing an APAR in the early 70's.

You clearly don't know what you are writing about. You can build APAR in any wavelength. PLAN use S-band APAR on Type-52C/D. Japan built OPS-24 APAR in L-band.

Another point is practicality even if you are able to monitor a distance of over 400Km, neither SM-2,SM-6 or ESSM has that much range to engage a target. (The illuminators utilizing X-band has an even shorter range)
So monitoring is just that monitoring without the capability of engaging.

SM-6 is actively guided, so no need for illuminator in that case. Having just a few rounds of SM-2 instead of just ESSM allow you to engagement long range target such as MPA. An Akizuki would be powerless against a shadowing Y-8 MPA.
Even if you can't engage a long distance target, the better situational awareness derived from a superior long range search radar gives you a tremendous edge in naval engagements.
 

shen

Senior Member
Actually, this is not so.

Well, I will be willing to bet you that not a single military planner for the PLAN, the Russian Navy, the Korans, or anyone else for that matter would consider either the Hyuga Class or the IUzumo class "laughable."

Such a contention itself borders on that term IMHO.

Both classes are very capable vessels with very strong ASuW and good air-assault capabilities. They also are very well suited for their own self defense and flag-ship duties...not to mention humanitarian efforts which is, of course secondary.

The Japanese clearly built Izumo with the desire to operate F-35 from her in the future. But with its current sensor suite it can't monitor airspace at long range to safely operate fix-wing aircraft. Can you find another modern aviation ship with only C-band radar?
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The Japanese clearly built Izumo with the desire to operate F-35 from her in the future. But with its current sensor suite it can't monitor airspace at long range to safely operate fix-wing aircraft. Can you find another modern aviation ship with only C-band radar?
Non-sequitur to my contentions.

The Izumo class will never go to sea and operate aircraft without a group of very strong escorts to provide her the long range air, and other defense they may require.

In order to operate their aircraft, either rotary or fixed, she does not need long range radar. Their medium range capabilities will more than suffice for:

1) Traffic control of aircraft moving towards or away from the vessel.
2) The control of her short to medium range defenses, and the ability to have them used cooperatively by escorts.

They have been designed, and have all of the sensors necessary, to operate in the role they are intended for.

...and, as I have said, they are very capable at it...as are the Hyugas.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
I didn't say the C-band radar would be completely useless. It would be more degraded by weather than a S-band radar.

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Look at that chart to see how much more C-band is degraded compare to S-band.
C-band radar is more common for land based purpose in cooler climate such as Europe. But when you consider the high moisture environment of the ocean and that warships have to deploy in various regions including the tropics, it is easy to see why no other navy in the world has picked C-band for their primary search radar.

The chart is based on 100 mm/hr rain which is equivalent to rainfall within a hurricane or a typhoon.
Not really a practical scenario since in such heavy rain a small on board targeting radar on a missile is going to lose target and communication would be useless as well.
One more tid bit to add, the German Navy TRS-3D, Dutch Navy MW-08 and the US AN/SPS-75 utilizes the C-band as well.


You clearly don't know what you are writing about. You can build APAR in any wavelength. PLAN use S-band APAR on Type-52C/D. Japan built OPS-24 APAR in L-band.

No I clearly posted in the early 70's in which AN/SPY-1 was first designed.
The technological envelope had been pushed quite far from then.

SM-6 is actively guided, so no need for illuminator in that case. Having just a few rounds of SM-2 instead of just ESSM allow you to engagement long range target such as MPA. An Akizuki would be powerless against a shadowing Y-8 MPA.
Even if you can't engage a long distance target, the better situational awareness derived from a superior long range search radar gives you a tremendous edge in naval engagements.

That is why you place them in a battle group, Akizuki type is used as mid-line defense in which it engages targets coming closer than 150Km.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
You clearly don't know what you are writing about. You can build APAR in any wavelength. PLAN use S-band APAR on Type-52C/D. Japan built OPS-24 APAR in L-band.
Actually, he knows exactly what he is writing about.

He did not say you could not build APAR in other wave lengths now or recently. He said back in the 1970s, when the first AEGIS vessels were being developed by the US, that they used S-Band because of the technology available at that time. And that is true. Here's what he said.

SamuraiBlue said:
US navy selected S-band because of the technological difficulties of developing an APAR in the early 70's.
That is correct.

So, he did know what he was writing about. You simply were taking his statement to mean something other than what he intended.
 

shen

Senior Member
Actually, he knows exactly what he is writing about.

He did not say you could not build APAR in other wave lengths now or recently. He said back in the 1970s, when the first AEGIS vessels were being developed by the US, that they used S-Band because of the technology available at that time. And that is true. Here's what he said.

That is correct.

So, he did know what he was writing about. You simply were taking his statement to mean something other than what he intended.

Now Jeff you don't know what you are writing about. "that they used S-Band because of the technology available at that time", did you really type that? USN could've easily build the SPY series in C-band with passive phase array technology back in the 70's if it wanted to. The reason why they picked S-band had nothing to do with the lack of APAR technology.
 

shen

Senior Member
The chart is based on 100 mm/hr rain which is equivalent to rainfall within a hurricane or a typhoon.
Not really a practical scenario since in such heavy rain a small on board targeting radar on a missile is going to lose target and communication would be useless as well.
One more tid bit to add, the German Navy TRS-3D, Dutch Navy MW-08 and the US AN/SPS-75 utilizes the C-band as well.

That rate is an example. Lower rain fall obviously would mean less degradation for all wavelength, but C-band would still be more affect to the same degree compare to S-band.

The example you gave, AN/SPS-75 is the same of TRS-3D btw, all designed to the primary search radar for corvette sized warships. This class of warships don't have significant AAW capability anyway so a less capable radar will do. When fitted to first line medium sized warships of Azizuki's size, they backed up by longer wavelength radar with superior long range performance. MW-08 for example is often paired with L-band LW-08.

No I clearly posted in the early 70's in which AN/SPY-1 was first designed.
The technological envelope had been pushed quite far from then.

again, you don't know what you are talking about. refer to my reply to Jeff.

That is why you place them in a battle group, Akizuki type is used as mid-line defense in which it engages targets coming closer than 150Km.

So you are saying FCS-3 equipped warships, including Akizuki, have to always tag along with warships with superior long range radar in order to operate effectively?
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Now Jeff you don't know what you are writing about. "that they used S-Band because of the technology available at that time", did you really type that? USN could've easily build the SPY series in C-band with passive phase array technology back in the 70's if it wanted to. The reason why they picked S-band had nothing to do with the lack of APAR technology.

First thing there are technological trade off to anything especially when following the same principle.
C-Bands has a shorter range but better resolution, smaller installation but degrades faster in high precipitation.
APAR has a stronger power outage with better beam magnification but difficult to design requiring higher technological skills.

From here on it's just a matter of design philosophy and the level of technology at hand.

In the early 70's the no nation had the technological capability to develop a APAR and PPAR was still at it's infancy. The US selected the S-band since a C-band PPAR would have had a very limited range of view in the range of under 100Km. Where as in S-band you can see further but can't really identify what there are tracking, so when they see something approaching they can launch a interceptor jet to see what is coming towards the battle group.

This may had worked in the 70's but after development of better missiles with longer range, fast speed and sea skimming capabilities a new philosophy of acquisition and identification of target at first contact became important.
This is when research of APAR started.
At the moment no matter how good the radars are you can't sea much beyond the horizon, so a target would need to be flying very high to be spotted from a sea level radar and no use for low incoming planes or missiles.

That rate is an example. Lower rain fall obviously would mean less degradation for all wavelength, but C-band would still be more affect to the same degree compare to S-band.

That chart is also misleading as well since it defines a band width in a single line which is basically ludicrous.
A radar band is just that a range of frequency in which C-band occupies 4~8GHz, with wave length between 37~75mm S-band occupies 2~4GHz with a wave length between 75~150mm. As you can see the two bands share the same frequency and wave length at the border. So in that chart the bands would actually be touching each other at the border.
The problem with the S-band at it's lowest frequency the target would be required to be relatively big to register on the radar screen.

The example you gave, AN/SPS-75 is the same of TRS-3D btw, all designed to the primary search radar for corvette sized warships. This class of warships don't have significant AAW capability anyway so a less capable radar will do. When fitted to first line medium sized warships of Azizuki's size, they backed up by longer wavelength radar with superior long range performance. MW-08 for example is often paired with L-band LW-08.

The Germans will absolutely go mad hearing that their F125-type Baden-Württemberg class frigate does not have AAW capabilities.

The C-band is utilized for search mode anyways. The Akizuki-class has another card up her sleeve in which she utilizes Gallium nitride semiconductor technology that the US only starting to do research to incorporate it into AMDR which enhances sensitivity of the radar boosting it's range.

So you are saying FCS-3 equipped warships, including Akizuki, have to always tag along with warships with superior long range radar in order to operate effectively?

Again writing out of ignorance of how a battle group works. The Kongo and Atago class having the long range radars has a primary mission to target and engage Ballistic missiles. Akizuki class are to escort these ships from incoming hostilities so they are undisturbed in accomplishing their mission.
Now do you understand?
 
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