J-20... The New Generation Fighter

Re: New Generation Fighter

I don't see why the Chinese shouldn't buy a few PAK-FAs, even if it's a dumbed-down version.

The issue is that the J-XX seems to be overly stealth-optimized in comparison to the PAK-FA, which is minimally stealth at 0.5 m^2 frontal RCS. The PAK-FA, on the other hand, is more focused on dog-fighting ability than the J-XX, so they compliment each other in controlling for the other's weaknesses (for example, using PAK-FAs in the back as a decoy, with J-XXs in a radial pattern protecting their front. The idea is that the PAK-FAs are used to draw in enemy stealth fighters, but the stealthy J-XXs surprise incoming fighters and launch BVR missiles. If anything survives, the J-XXs pull to the back of PAK-FAs and let the PAK-FAs clean up).

If the PAK-FA turns out to be dumbed-down, and the J-XX is a successful program, there's no reason the Chinese can't design new engines and avionics for the PAK-FA and then retrofit their Russian air-frames.

Re: New Generation Fighter

@ challenge ; even if those claims about TR MMIC and engines are true (I have doubts on the former, wasn't there this huge debate over whether china could produce AESA radar a while back which pretty much put the nail in the casket?), where'd the 50/50 number come from? I mean, are they like real statistics or one of those statistics which are made up on the spot?
And even if there are difficulties, does that mean they'll give up? Every development of new technologies have their hard times I'm sure... And the WS-15, from what we've been hearing is progressing fairly smoothly, and from 70092 the AESA radar is going quite well too.

@ Inst ; I agree, China should buy a few PAK FAs eventually, if only to get a taste of Russian fighter design, and as strike fighters (I think the PAK FA will have a greater weapons capacity than the J-XX, at least in being able to hold large(r) diameter guided bombs). And also as Opfor - India will operate the PAK FA as well...
But I don't know where the idea of the J-XX being stealthier than PAK FA came from; the final production PAK FA may be far more stealthy than its current form, and we've not even seen pictures of the J-XX. Too early for talking tactics at least involving J-XX at least...

Re: New Generation Fighter

to this date, everything we wanted to know Chinese aerospace technology remain much of a mystery.
every information regarding Chinese aerospace technology come from outsider, the russian,ukraine and even israelis.
in there opinion China still has a long way to go .
thus when china claim that there gen 4th fighter may ready for flight ,the claim was meet with skepticism from the west and the russian.

Re: New Generation Fighter

If the J-XX is less stealthy than the PAK-FA it will be a failure as a stealth aircraft.

As to whether the PAK-FA will be any more stealthy; I'm assuming the first generation PAK-FAs will be minimally stealthy as the Russians rush the project out the door to get export orders. If you check other aviation forums, the time table for the PAK-FA is very ambitious, so I doubt they'll be able to improve the RCS much on the first-generation craft.

Re: New Generation Fighter

challenge said:

there are a lot of technology such as compact high T:W HP TF engine, and electronic technology still beyond the capability of Chinese aerospace .
In there own admission ,while they have no problem RAM,the biggest was the was the engine. and the ability to mass produce T/R MMIC which critical .
other such as composite fiber technology

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For the sake of the argument lets say what you are saying is true. Then the technologies problematic to the PRC must be overcome one way or the other. This will delay projects, but it is critical. PRC would want to acquire certain technologies beyond them right now, but...

How is buying PAK-FA going to solve this? Especially dumbed-down versions? Buy it as a stop gap measure? Assuming the Russians are willing sell it in the first place. I can't even begin to imagine the price tag & quantity the Russians would demand. They won't be willing to sell 1 or 2 for evaluation .

I don't know how you are coming to the 50-50 chance figure from...

PRC would be interested in certain tech in the PAK-FA but thats a different story.....

Re: New Generation Fighter

Inst said:

If the J-XX is less stealthy than the PAK-FA it will be a failure as a stealth aircraft.

As to whether the PAK-FA will be any more stealthy; I'm assuming the first generation PAK-FAs will be minimally stealthy as the Russians rush the project out the door to get export orders. If you check other aviation forums, the time table for the PAK-FA is very ambitious, so I doubt they'll be able to improve the RCS much on the first-generation craft.

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The PAK FA as it is is already very stealthy, eclipsed probably only by the F-22. It's mostly on level with the F-35 imho, and will probably be refined (more serrated edges etc) when it mvoes into production. Even if the time table is ambitious, then the time table for the J-XX would be as, if not more unrealistic, no? It's supposedly due to enter service in 2017-2019, and China isn't exactly THAT much more superior than the Russians in aerospace and stealth, definitely lacking in several areas.

@ Challenge ; You've hit the nail right on the head there. Western, Russian, Israeli sources would all be skeptical, and they're justified. I think many of us here are skeptical as well on whether China will be able to pull off a 4th gen stealth fighter. But the big thing here is that the news announcement last year by the PLAAF deputy general wouldn't have been given if the PLAAF were not 100% sure J-XX will more or less meet the timeline.
China's communist - so their leaders and military wouldn't allow themselves to be embarrased like that. We should give the J-XX the benefit of doubt here - but luckily for China most outside sources are saying the J-XX won't materialize, or whatever. Underestimation is helpful for the Chinese military here.

Re: New Generation Fighter

Like I said, use the PAK-FA to help balance out the J-XX. Talk to the Russians and commit to using a high-low mixture of PAK-FA with Chinese avionics and J-XX, whichever one is high or low is up to the success of the relative project managers to decide.

As a condition, the Russians should cooperate further and agree to buy J-XX to supplement their PAK-FAs, but the Russians are probably too proud to accept Chinese aircraft.

Re: PAK-FA, the current PAK-FA in testing is equivalent to the Super Hornets or the Eurofighter when it comes to stealthiness, so it's not really in the F-35 range. The F-35 is 50 times as stealthy regarding its frontal RCS, or 2.7 times as stealthy when using logarithms. Perhaps the PAK-FA will approach the F-35 level in order to sell to international clients, who knows?

Re: New Generation Fighter

Inst said:

Like I said, use the PAK-FA to help balance out the J-XX. Talk to the Russians and commit to using a high-low mixture of PAK-FA with Chinese avionics and J-XX, whichever one is high or low is up to the success of the relative project managers to decide.

As a condition, the Russians should cooperate further and agree to buy J-XX to supplement their PAK-FAs, but the Russians are probably too proud to accept Chinese aircraft.

Re: PAK-FA, the current PAK-FA in testing is equivalent to the Super Hornets or the Eurofighter when it comes to stealthiness, so it's not really in the F-35 range. The F-35 is 50 times as stealthy regarding its frontal RCS, or 2.7 times as stealthy when using logarithms. Perhaps the PAK-FA will approach the F-35 level in order to sell to international clients, who knows?

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dude that is getting way too far into the future... buying PAK FA, making the Russians buy J-XX as a condition... the politics of it alone is enough for one to stop and stare i think...

(A note, J-XX and PAK FA will mostly be in the same class; both heavy weight fighters. The idea of high/low is to have some heavy weight, hardcore, long range fighters with many more medium/low weight, less hard core, shorter range fighters to complement. J-XX and PAK FA will be in the same class, so it'd be a bit weird to have both. It'll be like having J-10 and JF-17 in the same air force Unless of course you're talking about PAK FA being a strike fighter with it's (inevitably) higher internal carriage, but now I'm getting way too ahead with myself.)

Re: New Generation Fighter

Inst said:

Like I said, use the PAK-FA to help balance out the J-XX. Talk to the Russians and commit to using a high-low mixture of PAK-FA with Chinese avionics and J-XX, whichever one is high or low is up to the success of the relative project managers to decide.

As a condition, the Russians should cooperate further and agree to buy J-XX to supplement their PAK-FAs, but the Russians are probably too proud to accept Chinese aircraft.

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sorry but, wtf?

Re: New Generation Fighter

I tend to disagree with you that China should buy PAK FA... unless, as pointed out by someone, that the J-XX program had failed miserably.

As to use the PAK FA as a decoy to lure enemy's stealth fighter... This is an overly expensive tactics don't you think so? The job can be done by just about any type of fighters in China's inventory, there really has no need for such a move. Plus I think other than the J-XX, China is also developing the J-14 or J-15, which is the F-35 equivalent.

So... no, there is no need for the PAK-FA at the moment.