J-20... The New Generation Fighter

Status
Not open for further replies.

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

Well thanks to Red Moon, Roger, Siege Crossbow and Mwyrum for your answers (apologies if I have missed anyone).

Well OK lets go with what it says on the tin and agree it is a long range and long endurance Air Superiority Fighter. I look a bit askance at it replacing things such as the Flankers as that seems madness when all the bulk of J7 and early J8 variants remain in service . Yes it is a bee in my bonnet as until this lot is replaced with modern fully "Informationalised" aircraft, I just can't see if the PLAAF is up simply for modernisation or wholesale redesign.

That being said lets assume that what we have seen is pretty much what goes into production.
First Question: How many units?

To me the J20 looks big and expensive - the true top predator of the PLAAF. That's fine, but suggests that this is not going to be China's F35 more of its F22 (saying that I seriously doubt if the F35 is going to be America's F35 on account of budget constraints - which although off topic will have an effect on Chinese planning).

My guess is that the PLAAF are planning no more than a 100 units of this monster and the reason is simple. Why use this expensive aircraft in ways that compromise its key features when they can be done by cheaper and more appropriate aircraft?

I think that as a Stealth Fighter with a long range and long endurance, it will carry a large number of Air to Air Weapons and be a critical component in offensive force packaging. Let other aircraft carry the Cruise Missiles and ASM's etc, the J-20 can just shadow them or hover in the vicinity, invisibly and pounce on the enemy as they come to intercept and investigate. All the better when you think of it as it means that the enemy will come to you and you will not need to waste time looking for them.

Other missions I can see would be attacking enemy Air Defence Systems and also stalking enemy AWACS and Refuellers.

To make this plane however the main stay of the future PLAAF would be prohibitively expensive overkill, especially when you consider the likely non appearance of many of the proposed units that the J-20 would be designed to counter.

Lets not forget about the very capable Flankers and J10's that China has. otherwise you may just make them jealous about the new baby:rolleyes:
Bedsides many aspects of these new technologies can easily find their way into smaller platforms for less demanding fronts and contingencies.
 
Last edited:

Red Moon

Junior Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

You should read more closely what I actually said about F-22.

As for Taiwan. Suppose in 2016 the DPP wins the election. The new "President" proudly proclaims that the Taiwanese people have spoken and they are ready to be the newest state in the UN. They host a big convention in a stadium in Taipei. Many countries send "ambassadors" to attend this party. All the DPP party big-wigs are there. Then, as he is speaking about how historical this moment is, there's a roar overhead and a massive explosion rips apart the stage, killing him and the DPP big-wigs as well as "ambassadors" from countries recognizing the Republic of Taiwan.

TV stations analyze footage in the aftermath and see the big grinning face of the J-20 bearing down from above!

Roger, you should write science fiction!
 
Re: New Generation Fighter

You should read more closely what I actually said about F-22.

As for Taiwan. Suppose in 2016 the DPP wins the election. The new "President" proudly proclaims that the Taiwanese people have spoken and they are ready to be the newest state in the UN. They host a big convention in a stadium in Taipei. Many countries send "ambassadors" to attend this party. All the DPP party big-wigs are there. Then, as he is speaking about how historical this moment is, there's a roar overhead and a massive explosion rips apart the stage, killing him and the DPP big-wigs as well as "ambassadors" from countries recognizing the Republic of Taiwan.

TV stations analyze footage in the aftermath and see the big grinning face of the J-20 bearing down from above!

That's what I had in mind, and it seemed too funny. Could make an excellent movie out of it. Except killing other ambassadors that way is going to lead to a worldwide June 4th on China again
 

ztz99g

Banned Idiot
Re: New Generation Fighter

OK you two you need to cool it. I am asking nicely but it is not a request. ztz I realise you are new but you need to read the rules - personal attacks are not allowed and infractions can be dealt with very harshly here.

Sampanviking



Except you haven't, well not logically or realistically at the very least. Why can't a stealth platform perform every aspect of SEAD/DEAD by itself? Please explain that.
It's amazing how much handholding you actually require to get through an argument which you barely even comprehend. SEAD encompasses DEAD and is not some separate mission. You need to educate yourself more before you come back to this discussion. Here, let me help you with your education:
fas. org/ man/ crs/ RS21141. pdf [delete the spaces after the periods]

A stealth platform inherently defeats the very purpose of the wild weasel as a bait aircraft. The enemy has to know you're there. It has to light you up with an illumination radar for you to know it's there and attack it with a HARM or other PGM. And actually, since neither the F-22 nor the J-20 are likely to have the jamming capabilities of a Prowler or Growler, they will not even be able to non-destructively suppress any air defenses by means of electromagnetic interference either.

Don't be petulant. If you don't understand something, that is perfectly reasonable. Pretending to know something when you obviously don't for the sake of face saving is pretty bad form.

I would also drop the childish petulance asap if I were you. The majority of people here and certainly the mods do not look kindly on childish insults and name calling.
This must surely be a joke coming from someone with your level of insolence. You don't even nearly have the intellectual authority to talk down to anyone the way you tried to talk down to me, so don't start acting like somehow you are the aggrieved party here.

Again, very basic and irrelevant stuff. What you are describing is stealth penetration attacks typically employed by the B2. Their mission is not to suppress or destroy enemy SAMs and radars but to evade them and catch the enemy completely unawares when they don't expect an attack.
OMFG get a clue. For some reason you queerly took issue with my use of the term "flying under stealth" and tried to blow it up into a mass of unintelligible gibberish by invoking Star Trek and other associated nonsense. I explained to you what flying under stealth for stealth aircraft means since you seemed not to understand WTF you were talking about when you said that "your fighter is stealthy no matter where you fly it". It's just not, and that's a plain fact. And now you understand why.

Here's a question you seem to have completely forgot to ask yourself when you wrote that. How the hell is the enemy supposed to know that there isn't anything there if they don't turn on their radars to have a look see? With the radar off, how is the enemy supposed to know if its 4th gen or 5th gen or no fighters up there?

Also, if the enemy has turned off all their radars, then thats SEAD done and dusted without you even to have to do anything.
Again your ignorance is showing. With a standard 4th generation SEAD mission, you have two aircraft (or possibly even one with the Growler), a wild weasel and a jammer flying into enemy airspace. They know you are there because their long range surveillance radars have been tracking you. OTH and any multitude of early warning radars and AEW/C aircraft with overlapping coverage will be keeping tabs on you even if some of those radar nodes are disabled or destroyed. This is the modern SEAD environment. The problem is that these are not the FCR's that will be lighting you up and guiding missiles into your aircraft. The ones that do are the ones that are dangerous because you don't know where they are until they turn on. That's where the combo of wild weasel and jammer come into play. When you're flying a stealth aircraft nobody has any clue where exactly you are. You pass through the area and have not swept it clean of SAM batteries because YOU don't know where they are either.

You try to act all knowing and superior, but you make the most ridiculously basic errors and oversights that one cannot help but wonder whether you have the first clue what you are talking about.
LOL. That's kind of surreal coming from someone like you.

Maybe its my fault in confusing you by lumping SEAD and DEAD together, since you can't seem to be able to easily distinguish the two.
No, it's your own fault that you don't have the first damn clue that DEAD is included in SEAD rather than a separate mission. None other than the Department of Defense disagrees with your loonie compartmentalization. See above. Actually, let me quote it for you just so that you can see it again for the second time, in case you aren't quick enough to pick it up the first time:

"Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD) is defined by the Department of Defense (DOD) as “That activity that neutralizes, destroys, or temporarily degrades surface-based enemy air defenses by destructive and/or disruptive means.”1 By this definition, many military platforms, munitions, and processes contribute to SEAD, including reconnaissance and surveillance, stand-off jamming, employment of air-tosurface munitions, and electronic and infrared (IR) countermeasures." [my bold]

By the very fact that stealth platforms cannot target and destroy SAM FCR's that they don't know are there means that stealth platforms cannot perform SEAD in its "entirety". Oh, and AFAIK they can't standoff jam either. Even less "entirety" for you there.

There is a wealth of open source material readily available on both those topics, and I would advise you to do at least some basic reading on both before making further illogical claims.

Until you can demonstrate that you at least have a basic grasp of the subject matter, I see no point in wasting any more time with you.

Believe what you want, but your arguments are far from adequate to convince anyone with even a casual understanding of the subject.
I can only giggle slightly as I read this.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Re: New Generation Fighter

I guess by the emphasis on cyber espionage in this article, Bill Sweetman now thinks the J-20 is product of that when in an earlier blog he said no amount of espionage would achieve this level. At least he credited Chinese websites this time.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

Red Moon

Junior Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

My guess is that the PLAAF are planning no more than a 100 units of this monster and the reason is simple. Why use this expensive aircraft in ways that compromise its key features when they can be done by cheaper and more appropriate aircraft?

I think that as a Stealth Fighter with a long range and long endurance, it will carry a large number of Air to Air Weapons and be a critical component in offensive force packaging. Let other aircraft carry the Cruise Missiles and ASM's etc, the J-20 can just shadow them or hover in the vicinity, invisibly and pounce on the enemy as they come to intercept and investigate. All the better when you think of it as it means that the enemy will come to you and you will not need to waste time looking for them.

Other missions I can see would be attacking enemy Air Defence Systems and also stalking enemy AWACS and Refuellers.

To make this plane however the main stay of the future PLAAF would be prohibitively expensive overkill, especially when you consider the likely non appearance of many of the proposed units that the J-20 would be designed to counter.

Lets not forget about the very capable Flankers and J10's that China has. otherwise you may just make them jealous about the new baby:rolleyes:
Bedsides many aspects of these new technologies can easily find their way into smaller platforms for less demanding fronts and contingencies.
I agree with your points, and especially with a low number of units. As I said elsewhere, even a picture of this thing goes half way towards fulfilling its mission. And the money would be better spent on developing other new technologies, military and civilian, which will help other states nearby read the writing on the wall.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: New Generation Fighter

We can only imagine what happens when conducting a Cobra. But I say these new additions to the cockpit are nothing compared to those bottled water. Now that's something even the West and the F-22s don't have. Whoever came up with that, gotta give it to them. Can't believe all these time in stealth development no one ever thought about the pilots getting thirsty. Or maybe I'm wrong. Those are pee bottles.

In J-20B, we'll probably will see inclusions such as microwave and a fridge full of cold beer.

Goodone Roll on floor laughing
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

I agree with your points, and especially with a low number of units. As I said elsewhere, even a picture of this thing goes half way towards fulfilling its mission. And the money would be better spent on developing other new technologies, military and civilian, which will help other states nearby read the writing on the wall.

Well its a twist on the notion of Stealth where you are not sure if it actually exists let alone whether or not its flying in your vicinity.

But you could well be on the money with the reason for the release now, meaning that its first mission is political rather than military and its objectives can be hit from Tarmac in Chengdu!

It does make certain calculations for certain countries far more complicated and in some instances I am sure some sums will no longer add up.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

Awesome new aircraft. Can't wait to see it really fly.

It looks like it's really really big. Reminds me of big 1970s interceptors like the Mig-25. Yet it has canards, which would indicate it is intended to be used as a dogfighter. What's up with that?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top