J-20... The New Generation Fighter

Re: New Generation Fighter

cloyce said:

Really?
Then explain to us how could an aicraft that flies, lets say, at 25km (Blackbird) is significantly less detectable than an aircraft that flies at 10km (common jets).

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The point I was making was that there were very specialized circumstances to how they shot down that F-117 in Kosovo. Without the particular circumstance involved that F-117 would not have been shot down. To quote the wiki article

"One F-117 has been lost in combat with the Army of Yugoslavia. On 27 March 1999, during the Kosovo War, the 3rd Battalion of the 250th Air Defence Missile Brigade under the command of Colonel Zoltán Dani,[40] downed an F-117A, callsign "Vega 31", AF serial number 82-0806, with a Yugoslav version of the Soviet Isayev S-125 'Neva' (NATO name SA-3 'Goa') anti-aircraft missile system.[41][42] According to NATO Commander Wesley Clark and other NATO generals, Yugoslav air defenses detected F-117s by operating their radars on unusually long wavelengths, making the aircraft visible to radar for brief periods. It is also possible that the aircraft was visible due to a disruption of its radar signature caused by open bomb-bay doors. This was the justification given by Colonel Dani in a 2007 interview.[43]


Canopy of F-117 shot down in Serbia in March 1999 at the Museum of Aviation in Belgrade.
Reportedly, several SA-3s were launched from approximately 8 miles (13 km) out, one of which detonated near the F-117A, forcing the pilot to eject. Though still classified, it is believed that the F-117 has no radar warning indicator, so the pilot's first indication of an incoming missile was likely seeing its flame. At this distance and combined speed the pilot had about six seconds to react before impact. According to an interview, Zoltán Dani kept most of his missile sites intact by frequently moving them, and had spotters looking for F-117s and other NATO aircraft. He oversaw the modification of his targeting radar to improve its detection.[42] The commanders and crews of the SAMs guessed the flight paths of earlier F-117A attacks from rare radar spottings and positioned their SAM launchers and spotters accordingly. It is believed that the SA-3 crews and spotters were able to locate and track F-117A 82-806 visually, probably with infra-red and night vision systems. He claimed that his battery shot down an F-16 as well.[42]

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A modern missile will kill the plane if it can detect it, but from that one case example you've brought up detecting a stealth fighter from defence systems stationed on the ground involved repeated and predictable attack patterns and a very specific ground to air defence tactic that's unlikely to be easily or efficiently replicated in your average conflict. We don't know the maximum ceiling of the J-20, but if it was higher than its competitors that could help it in air to air combat.

In any case we're not in real disagreement on my basic point, that flying higher would decrease detectability. I wasn't applying that point to ground to air defence platforms but air to air combat, where altitude advantage could narrow deficiencies in radar range and stealth for the J-20 against competing 5th generation designs. In particular it would aid the J-20s approach towards other fights with superior radar range and stealth to even the playing fields at WVR combat.

Re: New Generation Fighter

latenlazy said:

The point I was making was that there were very specialized circumstances to how they shot down that F-117 in Kosovo. Without the particular circumstance involved that F-117 would not have been shot down. To quote the wiki article

A modern missile will kill the plane if it can detect it, but from that one case example you've brought up detecting a stealth fighter from defence systems stationed on the ground involved repeated and predictable attack patterns and a very specific ground to air defence tactic that's unlikely to be easily or efficiently replicated in your average conflict. We don't know the maximum ceiling of the J-XX, but if it was higher than its competitors that could help it in air to air combat.

In any case we're not in real disagreement on my basic point, that flying higher would decrease detectability. I wasn't applying that point to ground to air defence platforms but air to air combat, where altitude advantage could narrow deficiencies in radar range and stealth for the J-XX against competing 5th generation designs..

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First you say "Fly higher, and you will compensate less performant radar and elettronics".
Then you brought the "Kosovo F-117" (hit by a Surface to Air missile)case without any logic.
And now, you say you was talking about air-to-air fighter to fighter.

You know, I'm a little confused.
Anyway, in an air-to-air scenario, lets suppose J-XX has a 2km maximum ceiling advantage over F-22, now explain to us how that 2km altitude advantage could compensate for less ranged radar and stealth.

Re: New Generation Fighter

cloyce said:

First you say "Fly higher, and you will compensate less performant radar and elettronics".
Then you brought the "Kosovo F-117" (hit by a Surface to Air missile)case without any logic.
And now, you say you was talking about air-to-air fighter to fighter.

You know, I'm a little confused.
Anyway, in an air-to-air scenario, lets suppose J-XX has a 2km maximum ceiling advantage over F-22, now explain to us how that 2km altitude advantage could compensate for less ranged radar and stealth.

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You brought up the Kosovo case, not me (when you referenced how the blackbird was shot down). I was originally talking about how the J-XX could use a higher ceiling as an advantage against competing 5th generation platforms. In any case, sorry if this discussion has turned confusing.

Let's assume J-XX is up against a plane with superior avionics and stealth (we'll say it's an F-22 for this example). Flying at the same altitude it will be detected before it can detect its enemy, and can therefore be shot down before it has a chance to respond. If however it can fly higher, and if flying higher reduces its detectability, then its enemy won't be able to detect it as easily, thereby nullifying the range and stealth advantage that the F-22 possesses, at least to a degree. The lower detectability due to higher altitude will mean the J-XX can get closer to the F-22 before it's detected, compensating for its higher detectability due to inferior stealth and the F-22's superior radar range. This will allow the J-XX a greater chance of detecting and tracking the F-22 before it gets tracked and targeted. If the higher altitude advantage is significant enough it may even allow the J-XX to get WVR, nullifying the F-22's BVR advantage entirely and allowing the J-XX to exploit its superior maneuverability (assuming that it has superior maneuverability). In that sense, the J-XX may end up with inferior radar range and stealth, but equalize the situation with a higher max ceiling.

EDIT: I see where the confusion is now. I must've mistaken "Black Bird" for "Nighthawk" (this is what I get for staying up at 6 in the morning). I'm really sorry for that confusion. To go back and address that point, the Blackbird isn't a stealthy platform but a reduced RCS platform, so it is much easier to detect even if it's flying at a higher altitude (plus it had a near magnetic IR signature). For a stealth platform even at lower altitudes ground based defences will have trouble detecting the plane, so AA missiles from the ground don't pose nearly as much a risk.

Re: New Generation Fighter

The reason why the fighter get this big and slim is because, besides Taiwan, the most likely potential hot spots for China in the future are South China sea and East sea.

For such missions, especially the case of S.China sea, the combat radius of the fighter should be around 1500-2000km such that the fighter can take off from Hainan, and strike deep in the disputed area in S. China sea. Thats why the airforce emphasis longer range of the fighter and supercruise performance, hence the slim and huge size of the fighter.

Of cause, by no means the fighter would be a stealthy MiG-31 (MiG-31 dont really has long range anyway), Song Wen-Cong (chief scientist of this programme)'s paper posted here years ago already show J-20's design can ensure this fighter has superior dog-fight performance.

Re: New Generation Fighter

latenlazy said:

You brought up the Kosovo case, not me (when you referenced how the blackbird was shot down). I was originally talking about how the J-XX could use a higher ceiling as an advantage against competing 5th generation platforms. In any case, sorry if this discussion has turned confusing.

Let's assume J-XX is up against a plane with superior avionics and stealth (we'll say it's an F-22 for this example). Flying at the same altitude it will be detected before it can detect its enemy, and can therefore be shot down before it has a chance to respond. If however it can fly higher, and if flying higher reduces its detectability, then its enemy won't be able to detect it as easily, thereby nullifying the range and stealth advantage that the F-22 possesses, at least to a degree. The lower detectability due to higher altitude will mean the J-XX can get closer to the F-22 before it's detected, compensating for its higher detectability due to inferior stealth and the F-22's superior radar range. This will allow the J-XX a greater chance of detecting and tracking the F-22 before it gets tracked and targeted. If the higher altitude advantage is significant enough it may even allow the J-XX to get WVR, nullifying the F-22's BVR advantage entirely and allowing the J-XX to exploit its superior maneuverability (assuming that it has superior maneuverability). In that sense, the J-XX may end up with inferior radar range and stealth, but equalize the situation with a higher max ceiling.

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As you can see, in this picture J-XX has some km of altitude advantage over F-22.
None of them are able to fly in the stratosphere since they don't have scramjet engines.
I still can't figure out how some km of altitude advantage could make you less detectable.

latenlazy said:

EDIT: I see where the confusion is now. I must've mistaken "Black Bird" for "Nighthawk" (this is what I get for staying up at 6 in the morning). I'm really sorry for that confusion. To go back and address that point, the Blackbird isn't a stealthy platform but a reduced RCS platform, so it is much easier to detect even if it's flying at a higher altitude (plus it had a near magnetic IR signature). For a stealth platform even at lower altitudes ground based defences will have trouble detecting the plane, so AA missiles from the ground don't pose nearly as much a risk.

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Nice to see you understood which Black Bird I was referring to

Re: New Generation Fighter

one of the best shots so far

Re: New Generation Fighter

Now we know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the plane is indeed real. Now the arguments have shifted to the plane's performance lol.

Personally I think some manueverability will be sacrificed due to the long body. However I think the canards could offset the problem to a certain degree.

Re: New Generation Fighter

From this angle, the DSI bump extends out to the side of the cockpit. Some very unique design indeed!

Re: New Generation Fighter

this one is clearer, two hours ago, this photo upload in fy, but soon it has been deleted, I did'nt catch it.

Re: New Generation Fighter

Quickie said:

From this angle, the DSI bump extends out to the side of the cockpit. Some very unique design indeed!

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Could this be the "adjustable DSI" that we were talking about a few months ago?