J-20... The New Generation Fighter

Re: New Generation Fighter

70092 said:

There will be a twin-engine heavy stealth fighter-bomber become avaiable for taxi-test/maiden flight around the middle of 2011.

That fighter-bomber is developed at SAC, not CAC, and expected to be even larger than J-20, so not a middle-weight fighter. I dont think currently there is another single-engine 5th generation fighter programme running in China, well, of cause, besides unmanned aircrafts.

Actually, due to the arrangement of internal weapon bay, there may be of little point to develop single-engine middle weighted stealth fighter/strikers, etc.

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Is that the J-16? I know that some people have speculated J-16 to be merely a stealthy flanker. But I am leaning toward the idea that J-16 would be a cross between F-35 (same role actually) and flanker.

Re: New Generation Fighter

Swarms of short-range point defense fighters are for weak countries trying to defend themselves against a stronger foe. PRC against Soviet Union during the Cold War fits this description.

Strong countries prefer large long-range platforms. Clearly China is thinking in the right direction.

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Do "strong countries" not bother with border guards either? but just roll out a few armoured divisions if they need to restore order quickly? I don't think so. It sounds as though you are just thinking USA and using them as a general air defence template. The trouble though is that the US is a remote country surrounded by a couple of pacified neighbours. China however lives in a neighbourhood that is still quite a bit more rough.

I am sure that if you look at the modern NATO/CSTO border fast interceptors will be a factor on both sides ( although I am not sufficiently enough of a hardware freak to tell you what they are {and way to lazy to Badu [we don't Google anymore] to try and find the answer})

Re: New Generation Fighter

70092 said:

There will be a twin-engine heavy stealth fighter-bomber become avaiable for taxi-test/maiden flight around the middle of 2011.

That fighter-bomber is developed at SAC, not CAC, and expected to be even larger than J-20, so not a middle-weight fighter. I dont think currently there is another single-engine 5th generation fighter programme running in China, well, of cause, besides unmanned aircrafts.

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... J-20 isn't a medium weight fighter, it's a heavy weight fighter like the PAK FA and F-22.... isn't it?


Can you provide more information on this thing? Like, if it's a private venture by SAC? It's possible designation and role?

I don't see why the PLAAF would want a fighter in the same class (or a higher weight class) as the J-20 unless it's exclusively for strike, or the navy or something. It seems nonsensical -- and having two stealth programmes going near simultaneously just sounds... unlikely and overly optimistic and unrealistic.

Actually, due to the arrangement of internal weapon bay, there may be of little point to develop single-engine middle weighted stealth fighter/strikers, etc.

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I agree, it would be safer to have two smaller thrust engines instead of a single massive thrust engine like the F-35 has.

Re: New Generation Fighter

Roger604 said:

Is that the J-16? I know that some people have speculated J-16 to be merely a stealthy flanker. But I am leaning toward the idea that J-16 would be a cross between F-35 (same role actually) and flanker.

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Not J-16, J-16 is estentially another Su-27 modification, must be the SAC's version of SU-30 or like.

What I was talking about is a self-financed heavy fighter-bomber developed secretly by SAC.

You know after CAC soundly beaten SAC at the J-20 project, the loser side, SAC, dont give up, after learning
that the airforce guys were not impressed with their more convential approaches, they now change to a more
radicial ways of design fighters, and translate their experience gained by project J-20 into a fighter-bomber design.

Like I have mentioned 1 year ago, SAC has many powerful frens, even without the funding from Airforce, SAC still get sufficient funds to go ahead with this stealth fighter-bomber plan.

From a very creditable military insider (the guy give out the lots details of J-20 1 year ago, and match exactly with what we have seen now), the SAC's fighter-bomber programme goes extremely smooth, and the maiden flight could be no much late comparing to J-20.

Of cause, the problem with this programme is that even by now, the project is still fail to either get approved nor get sponsored by Airforce, so in the future, PLAAF may not even place orders for it.

I am not being biased, but to me, it seems that the Airforce has been quite negative towards SAC recently, so I wont be extremely optimstic about the future of this fighter-bomber.

But afterall we can see some new designs next year anyway, thats the point.

But of cause, SAC wont be straving to death, they get lots unmanned-aircraft reserarch deals through their channels from higher-ups in China military complex, instead of throuhg fair competition with others.

Re: New Generation Fighter

SampanViking said:

I do find myself wondering as to the role of this aircraft as it does seem rather large. My anticipation has always been for a small stealthy interceptor, primarily intended to start replacing the massive J7 fleets and also to provide a "relatively" low cost export solution.

Not quite sure if this baby fits that description and wondered if anyone here has any thoughts?

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I think a fleet of mass, stealthy interceptors isn't what China needs at the moment and interception can still be done by J-7's, J-8's, J-10s and J-11s without the need for expensive stealth technology. (Also I think most countries roll out the "expensive" fighter first before the more "low cost" one. Like F-15/F-16, Su-27/Mig-29, F-22/F-35)

The J-20 definitely is not a plane designed to replace J-7's -- if it's final production exceeds ~300 I'll be very surprised.
My 2 cents on the J-20's mission profile: Air superiority (BVR and close in dogfighting), interception, long range strike with PGMs (think JDAM or SDB class ordanance), hunting of enemy force multipliers, maybe deep penetration (depends as its rear aspect stealth isn't very good due to the engine nozzles).
I imagine its role won't be very different to the F-22 and PAK FA, though with maybe slightly more focus on strike than the F-22 (but seeing as these days all you need are the necessary avionics it shouldn't detract from air to air capabilities).

Re: New Generation Fighter

Can you provide more information on this thing? Like, if it's a private venture by SAC? It's possible designation and role?

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That is an interesting conjecture Blitzo, could this be some serious lobbying from SAC to a world that cannot yet differentiate between a large company and the state itself?

SAC role out a disfavoured design and get it plastered all over the net as a the "new Chinese Super Fighter", much to the excitement and raised expectations of netizens everywhere. If the project is then still not proceeded with it would immediately become a Chinese technological failure. If so its a very cheeky gamble and one that Beijing would not take kindly to having pulled against it. It would be very audacious though and could force Governments hand or risk appearing to lose face!!

Pure speculation of course......... but worth bearing in mind as a possible option.

Re: New Generation Fighter

70092 said:

Not J-16, J-16 is estentially another Su-27 modification, must be the SAC's version of SU-30 or like.

What I was talking about is a self-financed heavy fighter-bomber developed secretly by SAC.

You know after CAC soundly beaten SAC at the J-20 project, the loser side, SAC, dont give up, after learning
that the airforce guys were not impressed with their more convential approaches, they now change to a more
radicial ways of design fighters, and translate their experience gained by project J-20 into a fighter-bomber design.

Like I have mentioned 1 year ago, SAC has many powerful frens, even without the funding from Airforce, SAC still get sufficient funds to go ahead with this stealth fighter-bomber plan.

From a very creditable military insider (the guy give out the lots details of J-20 1 year ago, and match exactly with what we have seen now), the SAC's fighter-bomber programme goes extremely smooth, and the maiden flight could be no much late comparing to J-20.

Of cause, the problem with this programme is that even by now, the project is still fail to either get approved nor get sponsored by Airforce, so in the future, PLAAF may not even place orders for it.

I am not being biased, but to me, it seems that the Airforce has been quite negative towards SAC recently, so I wont be extremely optimstic about the future of this fighter-bomber.

But afterall we can see some new designs next year anyway, thats the point.

But of cause, SAC wont be straving to death, they get lots unmanned-aircraft reserarch deals through their channels from higher-ups in China military complex, instead of throuhg fair competition with others.

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Yeah, at least SAC is trying to up their game a little. I suppose Pakistan could be very well interested in their plane as well as the export market, though I wonder if this plane (if it even turns out to be real) will be a full 4th gen plane with supercruise and stealth. Espicially curious on if it will end up using WS-15 or not.

Also a bit strange that we've never heard of this project before...

Re: New Generation Fighter

Bltizo said:

Yeah, at least SAC is trying to up their game a little. I suppose Pakistan could be very well interested in their plane as well as the export market, though I wonder if this plane (if it even turns out to be real) will be a full 4th gen plane with supercruise and stealth. Espicially curious on if it will end up using WS-15 or not.

Also a bit strange that we've never heard of this project before...

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The funny part is that, the fighter-bomber project get a collection of losers.

SAC, through his channels, manage to lead a team consist of all the losers of J-20 project together (AESA radar, sensor, etc) to make this thing.

As for the engines, I would expect they will use whatever J-20 use, afterall we dont have much choices avaiable for this at the moment.

So I expect, once WS-15 is in place, the fighter-bomber would be capable of some or all of the 4S, but definitely weaker and probably cheaper than J-20.

Re: New Generation Fighter

Roger604 said:

I don't think China has been technologically superior to the West since the early days of gunpowder, Chinese age of sail, cannons and fire lances. That would be 14th to 15th century.

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Possibly, but, Chinese naval forces did defeat a Portuguese naval force in 1521-22, and a Dutch naval force in 1661-62. Additionally, the outcomes of the Russian–Manchu border conflicts of the 1650's -90's favored the Chinese. Therefore, could it not be deduced reasonably that the superiority of European military technology -and naval technology in particular- was not demonstrated -comparitively- until the eighteenth-century, and -effectively- until the nineteenth-century?

But we digress from the topic of this thread!

Re: New Generation Fighter

siegecrossbow said:

2017 and earlier is good since the F-35 is getting probably going to be purchased by many of China's neighbors at around the same time.

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Count them.