J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

AssassinsMace said:

Maybe I a little digressed in answering Mack8's question about the origin of my ID but I never brought up the J-20 as being seen as evil by the West. I believe I haven't read the article so I don't know the context of how the term is used. But I do know when it has been used, it has been put into the context of China plotting something diabolical. I gave an example of how the West has their own assassin's mace strategy in trying to make sure China's military doesn't modernize so if war comes they will know they'll win against China. It's sort of like how the West mocks "saving face" as something foreign and primitive. The West has their own version of saving face and it's called "ego." So if there's a problem then one should look to themselves first.

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You're quite right there brother, and the challenge is for all of us to build a relationship of trust with one another, and to affect each of our nations in a positive manner. I would remind each of you that our freedom on this forum to not only share friendship, but open honest debate, depends greatly on good manners and respect. We are all concerned about our nations security, as a Christian, I am concerned about your personal freedoms and security as well and wish only peace and happiness for each one of you and your families and your nation. This is a difficult world that depends on honest honorable men, this forum has given me a little hope for all of us. Cheers Brat

AssassinsMace said:

Maybe I a little digressed in answering Mack8's question about the origin of my ID but I never brought up the J-20 as being seen as evil by the West. I believe I haven't read the article so I don't know the context of how the term is used. But I do know when it has been used, it has been put into the context of China plotting something diabolical. I gave an example of how the West has their own assassin's mace strategy in trying to make sure China's military doesn't modernize so if war comes they will know they'll win against China. It's sort of like how the West mocks "saving face" as something foreign and primitive. The West has their own version of saving face and it's called "ego." So if there's a problem then one should look to themselves first.

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in the world weapons are instruments of foreign policy, in the west.
J-20 is a weapon and as such a tool of foreign policy, it has nothing to do with the ego of the average people, just simply with the ability each weapon brings to the negociating table, same was the Tu-22M or the SS-20s.

Now no one will win a WWIII, the J-20 only represent a tactical weapon, as such is only important in the context of tactical weapons, but in an all out war, there is no winners, we live in a world with enough nukes to destroy the world several times and make it uninhabitable for almost all life except for cockroaches

Bltizo said:

Are you talking about this series?

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To be fair the book serise (which i'm not familiar with) doesn't seem to insinuate the whole evil deal. but the image of malevolent china as a dragon is still true, but so are slightly less negative phrases.

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Actually the story is a lot more complicated than you think, I bought the entire series...I know I read way too much for my own good...
It delves into many concepts, like equality/freedom/slavery, loyalty vs morality, and how people seemingly evil can change.
The Chinese dragon Lien initially approached the Barbarian Emperor(Napoleon) to use him as a tool to strike out against UK, but eventually they began to respect and change each other, together forging a much greater vision.

The image of China as an evil entity is also not quite accurate, they were definitely a threat to the British Empire, but the book rather judges people based on their actions, as the protagonist at one point was hesitant to side with the British, and only joined the battle to save fleeing British sailors.

MiG-29 said:

Well i respect your opinion becuase this is a J-20 thread not a historical thread, but as my last response, i can tell you that South Korea, Taiwan and Japan are also asian, and the west does not see them like they see China.

The reason why the west see China as an antagonist, has to do the Chinese political system and the Chinese foreign policies.

Example, now Japan is building a stealth fighter, but in the west there are not alarm bells because of that, and the main reason is Japan is capitalist, a democratic monarchy as England and Japan has no nuclear weapons.
Most western nations are multi-cultural, secular and democratic, thus most of human rights are respected included their citizens of asian descent and these days is very common to see western people married to asians.

So why China then is considered an antagonist?

Simple in the UN security 5 permanent members Russia and China oppose the Western policies, thus J-20 and T-50 are deterrent to western pressures.

China as well as Russia by building their own fleet of stealth fighters and support policies that do not agree with the west become the antagonists of the West.




So the J-20 becomes a weapon agression unlike the Eurofighter or the japanese F-3.

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Very very well-put. I really like this response, and yes I agree for most of what you've said here. I took an international relations course for my minor and yes, liberal democratic states do support one another. China and Russia's authoritarian regimes are indeed the major poking points towards the West(part being the differences of cultural values), but we also do need to recognize why there's a need for them to do so. Western agenda, spearheaded by the US, often serves Western interests and actually harms or hinders parts of China and Russia's national security. As for SK, Tw, and Japan, or even HK for the matter, you're almost right. Racisms against Asians are often in general, regardless of specific nationalities or ethnicity. This is what I'm quite referring to, but yes when politically, you are dead on about this. In fact, Koreans, Japanese, Taiwanese, Singaporeans, Malay, Thai, and maybe HK as well(I hope?) have it a lot easier and given a lot more slack simply cause they aren't as restrictive and controlled as PRC.

MiG-29 said:

Well i respect your opinion becuase this is a J-20 thread not a historical thread, but as my last response, i can tell you that South Korea, Taiwan and Japan are also asian, and the west does not see them like they see China.

The reason why the west see China as an antagonist, has to do the Chinese political system and the Chinese foreign policies.

Example, now Japan is building a stealth fighter, but in the west there are not alarm bells because of that, and the main reason is Japan is capitalist, a democratic monarchy as England and Japan has no nuclear weapons.
Most western nations are multi-cultural, secular and democratic, thus most of human rights are respected included their citizens of asian descent and these days is very common to see western people married to asians.

So why China then is considered an antagonist?

Simple in the UN security 5 permanent members Russia and China oppose the Western policies, thus J-20 and T-50 are deterrent to western pressures.

China as well as Russia by building their own fleet of stealth fighters and support policies that do not agree with the west become the antagonists of the West.




So the J-20 becomes a weapon agression unlike the Eurofighter or the japanese F-3.

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I don't think it has anything to do with the political system. Japan and SK have little potential to challenge the dominance of the US, while China has huge potential to challenge the US. So the US leave SK, Japan and Taiwan alone even when they develop advanced weapons. It has little to do with the political system because every nation has their agenda and goals. Many times, these goals and agenda collide, no matter what kind of political system they have. France collide with the US many times although they are both democratic. Many interests collide even within the same country. So no matter what kind of political system China has or will have in the future, China's interests will collide with those of the US, such as the dominance of the Pacifics. And the US understands that China will not willingly obey the orders of the US. Even when China becomes democratic, China still wants to be THE superpower in the world. As matter of fact, China will probably be even more ambitious than now when it becomes democratic. As nationalistic feelings runs high in China, a democratic China will be more ambitious to please the voters. As such, China's ambition WILL collide with the US even more so than now. The US sees this and tries to keep China under control as much as they can.

Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan can't do anything without the US's help. They cannot make a stealth fighter without the US. That's why they're not a threat because the US can easily withhold parts they need or have mechanisms to punish. Let's just remember back during the 1980s, Japan, a democracy and ally of the US, was seen as a greater threat than the Soviet Union. "Friendly" has nothing to do with mutual values. You want to compare Japan and China? Japan was far more villified by Americans than China to date so far.

AssassinsMace said:

Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan can't do anything without the US's help. They cannot make a stealth fighter without the US. That's why they're not a threat because the US can easily withhold parts they need or have mechanisms to punish. Let's just remember back during the 1980s, Japan, a democracy and ally of the US, was seen as a greater threat than the Soviet Union. "Friendly" has nothing to do with mutual values. You want to compare Japan and China? Japan was far more villified by Americans than China to date so far.

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What?!? I have to respectfully disagree with you there. Japan perhaps was viewed as an economic threat but certainly not a military threat. While the US had thousands of warheads dialed to the former USSR in the 1980's and even now, I doubt they had many if any at all pointed at Tokyo etc...

Yes, it is true. You don't remember all the books about Japan taking over the world fiction and non-fiction? There was a lot of paranoia of Japan especially in the 80s. Vincent Chin was beaten to death because two Detroit autoworkers who thought he was Japanese. A Japanese tourist in New Orleans looking for directions was shot and killed when he walked up to a house. It's irrelevant if Japan was actually a military threat. China doesn't have the capability to invade the US yet people think China can invade. There was a lot of fear of Japan, an ally of the US. And like I said politicians then proclaimed Japan more dangerous than the Sovet Union.

A couple of examples of violence being perpetrated on Japanese (of assumed Japanese) cannot be used as the entire country and government being anti Japan. Those examples you gave has to do with racism and individual paranoia and they will always be there because racist people will always exist. I thought we were talking more in a corporate sense and not individual feelings.
With that being said I do agree that Asians in America are generally viewed with suspicion and distrust and always look upon as 'foreigners' even if their families have been here for generations. .

You don't hear about violence due to what China is doing. Do you live in the US? If so, then you must've been really young during the 80s or not even born yet. The most ugliest fearful comments were made about the Japanese during that time. China has not even gotten close to that fear in Americans yet and China is suppose to be a real threat unlike Japan.