J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

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i.e.

Senior Member
Re: Global Security states F-22 is approximately 25% composites

Citation from the mainstream and well-respected Global Security:

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"Validating structural materials is especially important to the F-22 because new material technologies were incorporated to maximize aircraft performance. The overall percentage of composites in the F-22 (approximately 25%) is historically high, though not unprecedented. However, the extensive application of Resin Transfer Molding (RTM) technology and high temperature bismaleimide (BMI) composite materials directly resulted in the high weight/performance efficiency the Raptor demonstrates. The use of metallics technologies such as titanium Hot Isostatic Pressed (HIP) castings and electron beam welding allowed the airframe designers to incorporate complex features into a single component without the weight of fastened assemblies. The continuing challenge is to reduce material and component costs through a constant reassessment of emerging technologies. Recently developed machining technologies, for instance, have allowed the inlet canted frame lip to be changed from a casting to a lower cost machined component with no appreciable weight penalty.

(article continues with technical details)"

IMHO, an efficient metalic structure with extensive application of large casting techniques and electron beam welding probablly contributed equally to the weight efficency if not more than composites.

composites is not the "cure all", all puns intended.
 

Martian

Senior Member
J-20 can supercruise and is more stealthy than F-35

1. In a much earlier post, I quoted a J-20 Chinese test pilot who confirmed the J-20 can supercruise. F-35 cannot.

2. J-20 has a clean design like the F-22. I have already mentioned the two flaws in the J-20 design that makes it currently inferior to the F-22 (e.g. "some curvature of the sides" that need to be re-worked and glaring round engine nozzles). However, the F-35 is far more flawed with its compromised design of "‘hideous lumps, bumps, humps and warts’ [that] have appeared on the JSF to disrupt the shaping imperative."

3. Australia Air Power "Physical Optics simulation across nine radio-frequency bands" has shown the J-20 is optimized for stealth. In contrast, the F-35 design is mostly meant to defeat radars in two bands: "to best defeat radars operating in the X and upper S band."

In conclusion, aside from avionics, the J-20 Mighty Dragon is superior to the F-35 in both supercruise ability and stealth across all "nine radio-frequency bands."

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"In spite of being smaller than the F-22, the F-35 has a larger radar cross section. It is said to be roughly equal to a metal golf ball rather than the F-22's metal marble.[126] The F-22 was designed to be difficult to detect by all types of radars and from all directions.[127] The F-35 on the other hand manifests its lowest radar signature from the frontal aspect because of compromises in design. Its surfaces are shaped to best defeat radars operating in the X and upper S band, which are typically found in fighters, surface-to-air missiles and their tracking radars, although the aircraft would be easier to detect using other radar frequencies.[127] Because the shape of the aircraft is so important to its radar cross section, special care must be taken to maintain the "outer mold line" during production.[128] Ground crews require Repair Verification Radar (RVR) test sets in order to verify the RCS of the aircraft after performing repairs, which was not a concern for previous generations of non-stealth fighters.[129][130]"

meqfE.jpg

F-35 with "‘hideous lumps, bumps, humps and warts’ [that] have appeared on the JSF to disrupt the shaping imperative."

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XjnyQ.jpg

J-20 Mighty Dragon has smooth and flat underside.

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"This study has therefore established through Physical Optics simulation across nine radio-frequency bands, that no fundamental obstacles exist in the shaping design of the J-20 prototype precluding its development into a genuine Very Low Observable design.

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Above: L-band RCS, below X-band RCS head on, both in PCSR format (M.J. Pelosi).

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Engineers and Scientists who work in ‘stealth’ (AKA ‘Low Observable’) designs have a way for explaining it to lay people: ‘Stealth’ is achieved by Shaping, Shaping, Shaping and Materials (Denys Overholser).

The F-22A is clearly well shaped for low observability above about 500 MHz, and from all important aspects. The J-20 has observed the ‘Shaping, Shaping, Shaping’ imperative, except for the axisymmetric nozzles, and some curvature of the sides that smears a strong, but very narrow specular return into something of a more observable fan. The X-35 mostly observed the ‘Shaping, Shaping, Shaping’ rule, but since then, to quote a colleague, ‘hideous lumps, bumps, humps and warts’ have appeared on the JSF to disrupt the shaping imperative, forcing excessive reliance on materials, which are at the rear-end of the path to ‘Low Observability’.

While discussing ‘rear-ends’, both the F-35 and the J-20 have large signature contributions from their jet nozzles. However, the difference is much like the proverbial ‘Ham Omelette’: the F-35 Pig is committed, but the J-20 Chicken is a participant. If the Chinese decide that rear sector Low Observability is tactically and strategically important, they are at the design stage where they can copy the F-22A nozzle design for the production configuration of the J-20."

[Note: Thank you to HouShanghai for the J-20 underside picture and Stereospace for the F-35 underside picture.]
 
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siegecrossbow

General
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Re: J-20 can supercruise and is more stealthy than F-35

Xu wasn't the J-20 test pilot. He retired before he got the chance.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
It would be a tragedy if J-20 couldn't supercruise and has advantage at right side of envelope vs F35, ...
2 big low pass engines and you still couldn't beat out a fighter that is essentially built around a ridiculously high by pass ratio turbo fan. ridiculous!

heck you can stick F-135 in a jet liner and you still be ok. .
 
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i.e.

Senior Member
@Martian.

I suspect with the next iteration of engines they will redesigned the rear of J-20.

Just watch...
 

Quickie

Colonel
Re: J-20 can supercruise and is more stealthy than F-35

1.
2. J-20 has a clean design like the F-22. I have already mentioned the two flaws in the J-20 design that makes it currently inferior to the F-22 (e.g. "some curvature of the sides" that need to be re-worked and glaring round engine nozzles). However, the F-35 is far more flawed with its compromised design of "‘hideous lumps, bumps, humps and warts’ [that] have appeared on the JSF to disrupt the shaping imperative."


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meqfE.jpg

F-35 with "‘hideous lumps, bumps, humps and warts’ [that] have appeared on the JSF to disrupt the shaping imperative."

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Some F-35 fanboys even claim that all these lumps and muscles on the the F-35 are actually advanced refined stealth shaping that wasn't even available during the design of the older F-22. These fanboys in effect claim that the F-35 have more advanced stealth shaping than F-22 although they never claim explicitly that the F-35 is stealthier than the F-22. But I guess most people can see this is only the opinion of armchair experts where big words speak louder than a real expert's background and qualifications.
 

siegecrossbow

General
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Re: J-20 can supercruise and is more stealthy than F-35

Some F-35 fanboys even claim that all these lumps and muscles on the the F-35 are actually advanced refined stealth shaping that wasn't even available during the design of the older F-22. These fanboys in effect claim that the F-35 have more advanced stealth shaping than F-22 although they never claim explicitly that the F-35 is stealthier than the F-22. But I guess most people can see this is only the opinion of armchair experts where big words speak louder than a real expert's background and qualifications.

From what I've read the bumps were the result of an attempt to increase the size of the weaponsbays. I agree that those claims are ridiculous. The problem we have is that ridiculous claims about U.S. made weapons are often treated fact despite how infeasible they may seem.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Re: J-20 can supercruise and is more stealthy than F-35

From what I've read the bumps were the result of an attempt to increase the size of the weaponsbays. I agree that those claims are ridiculous. The problem we have is that ridiculous claims about U.S. made weapons are often treated fact despite how infeasible they may seem.

for all intents and purposes USAF will use JSF as a bomb truck, just as they used F-16 (an agile light weight fighter optimized for transonic dogfight but used for strike)

But The original X-35 is optimized for A2A, a fighter jockey's airplane, in order to win the contract.
one big thing that went for it instead of x-32 is that it's accel and top speed is much better. so fighter jockey that dominated the DoD procurement automatically lean towards a "better flying" airplane.
The original JSF contract didn't spell out hard requirements, for example it didn;t specify max mach the airplane has to hit. but instead asked for how each team interprete a soft set of mission requirements.


so Boeing (MD)'s design actually met the actual needs better... their original design had a wing with a L/D in teens, (!!!) untrimmed , even after trim the L/D still went to 9s. (I always wonder what the 35A's L/D is with its stubby little wings optimized to hit that high mach) ...which is pretty high for a fighter, and its volumnous wing had the fuel for range, and its fat body has volumn for internal bombs. but the bad part is it turns and sped up much worse than x-35.

but in reality the fighter had to perform a bomber role. which x-32's original design is much better at performing than x-35...

so after lockmart got DoD pregnant. now the fun begins as they turn a fighter into a bomber...thus the volumn growth.


so now, after all these years,

essentially FA-35 started out life as a fighter, became a bomber, now will be demanded to fill a fighter role.

It will have to heavily dependent on its superior system to provide better situation awareness to keep it ahead of its competitors, instead of hard performance number, when it goes up against A2A oriented foes (J-20, PAK-FA, and who knows what). in other words: bank everything on situation awareness, but gave up on stealth, speed, super-maneuvabiltiy.

but,

who says the F-35 will always have superiority in systems??!


....

BTW the mid sized fighter competition in China, the chinese JSF saga if you will, will still be oriented towards A2A. and it will be actually used as A2A roles, unlike American JSF.
 
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i.e.

Senior Member
Redesign as in the addition of TVC nozzles and removal of the ventral fins?

Ventral Fins 50/50
New nozzles, yes.

have you guys notice how the nozzle and engine of J-20 is bit undersized right now?
they definitely laid out the planform for somebigger engines... those grooves in the back is draggy! no need for them if you don't reply on channel flow like Flankerism.

but the current engine don't have volumn to fill. so they definitely planned the fighter's rear fueslage for some bigger diameter engines.
 
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