J-20... The New Generation Fighter III
- Thread starter siegecrossbow
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I was just trying to clarify what was meant with "industrial foundation" and why I responded with the brief quip on the Sino-Soviet split. It wasn't really digging into the actual discussion of that topic (which would require a far longer response than I'm willing to entertain, and which I wasn't sure you'd have wanted to have anyways).
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there is self dillusional among some blogger that China is high tech industrial country,if China indeed was leader in high tech,why begging for EU,and US to end arm embargo?
while it's true in the last 20 years,China indeed make alot of technical breakthrough,overall it still rely of foreign assisstant .
but then other countries such as israel or japan ,even the EU rely on US technologycal help.
while it's true in the last 20 years,China indeed make alot of technical breakthrough,overall it still rely of foreign assisstant .
but then other countries such as israel or japan ,even the EU rely on US technologycal help.
Being a high tech country and getting "foreign assistance" are not mutually exclusive...and I think that's something both sides of the debate constantly seem to overlook. Korean firms use US made processors, and US firms use Korean made memory. Both contract out Taiwan to do silicon manufacturing, etc etc. Should we call that foreign assistance?
That said, China is not so much a developed high tech power as much as it has one of the best potentials to reach there in the cluster of leading developing countries.
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Lolwut? China can get most of what they want from the EU with the arms embargo up thank you very much, and even if it went down there's not a lot of ready made weapons they would buy which they wouldn't be able to make themselves in due time.
Quickie
Colonel
IMO, some people have to realize that the technological transfers between countries are actually the purchase of high tech equipment or its kits and basic component modules. Take the case of the flankers between China and Russia. Russia would sell the flanker aircrafts or its basic kits and modules to build the aircrafts, but she would not be so generous as to actually teach China the process of designing the aircrafts or how to design and build their basic components itself.
Some countries , which probably include Russia and U.S. among others, are wary of a technological advanced China and the best way of holding and delaying it is to have "technological transfers" that involve only the selling of components and modules (or the complete equipment itself) that itself are a mystery to the Chinese as to its inner workings. If the Russians are so generous on tecnological transfers, China would already be manufacturing the AL-31s engines under a license agreement or something. They would even go to the extend of teaching China on how to manufacture single-crystal engine fan blades.
Edit: Opps... I only saw Deino's post after posting this.
Some countries , which probably include Russia and U.S. among others, are wary of a technological advanced China and the best way of holding and delaying it is to have "technological transfers" that involve only the selling of components and modules (or the complete equipment itself) that itself are a mystery to the Chinese as to its inner workings. If the Russians are so generous on tecnological transfers, China would already be manufacturing the AL-31s engines under a license agreement or something. They would even go to the extend of teaching China on how to manufacture single-crystal engine fan blades.
Edit: Opps... I only saw Deino's post after posting this.
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lol, i think it's time to clean up Deino
people i beg you please use this thread whenever you want to engage in anything off topic :
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/members-club-room/sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-5801.html
people i beg you please use this thread whenever you want to engage in anything off topic :
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/members-club-room/sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-5801.html
airsuperiority
Captain
First of all, homiezz,
"I have returned"
- dragoon from starcraft
Anyways,
If all are accurate, which I suppose so..(I don't see why any fanboys will go through the pointless act of creating a banner for no reason), then this banner suddenly provides us a wealth of information.
J-20
Pilot: 1
Length: 21.26m (without pitot tube)
Height: 4.45m
Plane Width: 3.94m
Empty Weight: 17 tonnes
Air-to-Air Weight: 25 tonnes (maximum?)
Maximum Weight(Payload)?: 11 tonnes
Canard-span(can't read what it says): 7.62m
Wingspan: 12.88m
Maximum Speed: Mach 2.5
Maximum Altitude: 20,000 m
Range: 5500 km (with 2 secondary fuel tanks I suppose that's what it said)
Armament: I can't read the bottom paragraph too clearly, but it seems like the J-20's armaments include SD-10D are for MRAAM, PL-21 LRAAM, PL-10 SRAAM. It also seems like the paragraph mentioned something about cruise missiles, Beidou-guided PGM free-glide bombs, and various "advanced PGM"(quoted because I'm not exactly sure that's what I've read), (something something with the word "fire" in it lol), IR disruptor
Now to compare:
PAK FA
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 19.8 m (65.9 ft)
Wingspan: 14 m (46.6 ft)
Height: 6.05 m (19.8 ft)
Wing area: 78.8 m2 (848.1 ft2)
Empty weight: 18,500 kg (40,785 lb)
Loaded weight: 26,000 kg (57,320 lb)
Useful load: 7,500 kg (combat load) (16,534 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 37,000 kg (81,570 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × AL-41F1 for prototypes turbofan, 147 kN (33,047 lb for prototype;[83] >157 kN (34,620 lb) for definitive version[83]) each
Fuel capability: 10,300 kg (22,711 lb)[81]
Performance
Maximum speed: 2,100 - 2,500 km/h (Mach 2+)[81][84] (1,300 - 1,560 mph) ; at 17,000 m (45,000 ft) altitude
Cruise speed: 1,850 - 2,100 km/h[84] (1,150 - 1,300 mph)
Ferry range: 5,500 km[75] (3,417 miles)
Service ceiling: 20,000 m (65,600 ft)
Rate of climb: 350 m/s (68,900 ft/min)
Wing loading: 330-470 kg/m2 (67-96 lb/ft2)
Thrust/weight: 1.19[81]
Maximum g-load: 9+ g[81]
F-22
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 62 ft 1 in (18.90 m)
Wingspan: 44 ft 6 in (13.56 m)
Height: 16 ft 8 in (5.08 m)
Wing area: 840 ft² (78.04 m²)
Airfoil: NACA 64A?05.92 root, NACA 64A?04.29 tip
Empty weight: 43,430 lb (19,700 kg[6][241])
Loaded weight: 64,460 lb (29,300 kg[N 6])
Max takeoff weight: 83,500 lb (38,000 kg)
Powerplant: 2 × Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 Pitch Thrust vectoring turbofans
Dry thrust: 23,500 lb[244] (104 kN) each
Thrust with afterburner: 35,000+ lb[6][244] (156+ kN) each
Fuel capacity: 18,000 lb (8,200 kg) internally,[6][241] or 26,000 lb (11,900 kg) with two external fuel tanks[6][241]
Performance
Maximum speed:
At altitude: Mach 2.25 (1,500 mph, 2,410 km/h) [estimated][119]
Supercruise: Mach 1.82 (1,220 mph, 1,963 km/h)[119]
Range: >1,600 nmi (1,840 mi, 2,960 km) with 2 external fuel tanks
Combat radius: 410 nmi (with 100 nmi in supercruise) [240] (471 mi, 759 km)
Ferry range: 2,000 mi (1,738 nmi, 3,219 km)
Service ceiling: 65,000 ft (19,812 m)
Wing loading: 77 lb/ft² (375 kg/m²)
Thrust/weight: 1.09 (1.26 with loaded weight & 50% fuel)
Maximum design g-load: -3.0/+9.0 g[119]
Armament
Guns: 1× 20 mm (0.787 in) M61A2 Vulcan 6-barreled gatling cannon in starboard wing root, 480 rounds
Air to air loadout:
6× AIM-120 AMRAAM
2× AIM-9 Sidewinder
Air to ground loadout:
2× AIM-120 AMRAAM and
2× AIM-9 Sidewinder for self-protection, and one of the following:
2× 1,000 lb (450 kg) JDAM or
8× 250 lb (110 kg) GBU-39 Small Diameter Bombs
Hardpoints: 4× under-wing pylon stations can be fitted to carry 600 US gallon drop tanks or weapons, each with a capacity of 5,000 lb (2,268 kg).[245]
Click here to view the original image of 776x600px.
Based on stats alone, range-wise, J-20 = PAK-FA > F-22
speed-wise, J-20> PAK-FA, F-22
Length-wise, J-20 is the longest of the 3
I wondered if these data were collected from the previous 60 flights
In addition, if they have already even provided the data for WS-15, does this mean they have already obtained results and tested the WS-15? Or could it even be that the WS-15 is actually one of the prototypes, but using conventional exhausts?
"I have returned"
- dragoon from starcraft
Anyways,
If all are accurate, which I suppose so..(I don't see why any fanboys will go through the pointless act of creating a banner for no reason), then this banner suddenly provides us a wealth of information.
J-20
Pilot: 1
Length: 21.26m (without pitot tube)
Height: 4.45m
Plane Width: 3.94m
Empty Weight: 17 tonnes
Air-to-Air Weight: 25 tonnes (maximum?)
Maximum Weight(Payload)?: 11 tonnes
Canard-span(can't read what it says): 7.62m
Wingspan: 12.88m
Maximum Speed: Mach 2.5
Maximum Altitude: 20,000 m
Range: 5500 km (with 2 secondary fuel tanks I suppose that's what it said)
Armament: I can't read the bottom paragraph too clearly, but it seems like the J-20's armaments include SD-10D are for MRAAM, PL-21 LRAAM, PL-10 SRAAM. It also seems like the paragraph mentioned something about cruise missiles, Beidou-guided PGM free-glide bombs, and various "advanced PGM"(quoted because I'm not exactly sure that's what I've read), (something something with the word "fire" in it lol), IR disruptor
Now to compare:
PAK FA
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 19.8 m (65.9 ft)
Wingspan: 14 m (46.6 ft)
Height: 6.05 m (19.8 ft)
Wing area: 78.8 m2 (848.1 ft2)
Empty weight: 18,500 kg (40,785 lb)
Loaded weight: 26,000 kg (57,320 lb)
Useful load: 7,500 kg (combat load) (16,534 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 37,000 kg (81,570 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × AL-41F1 for prototypes turbofan, 147 kN (33,047 lb for prototype;[83] >157 kN (34,620 lb) for definitive version[83]) each
Fuel capability: 10,300 kg (22,711 lb)[81]
Performance
Maximum speed: 2,100 - 2,500 km/h (Mach 2+)[81][84] (1,300 - 1,560 mph) ; at 17,000 m (45,000 ft) altitude
Cruise speed: 1,850 - 2,100 km/h[84] (1,150 - 1,300 mph)
Ferry range: 5,500 km[75] (3,417 miles)
Service ceiling: 20,000 m (65,600 ft)
Rate of climb: 350 m/s (68,900 ft/min)
Wing loading: 330-470 kg/m2 (67-96 lb/ft2)
Thrust/weight: 1.19[81]
Maximum g-load: 9+ g[81]
F-22
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 62 ft 1 in (18.90 m)
Wingspan: 44 ft 6 in (13.56 m)
Height: 16 ft 8 in (5.08 m)
Wing area: 840 ft² (78.04 m²)
Airfoil: NACA 64A?05.92 root, NACA 64A?04.29 tip
Empty weight: 43,430 lb (19,700 kg[6][241])
Loaded weight: 64,460 lb (29,300 kg[N 6])
Max takeoff weight: 83,500 lb (38,000 kg)
Powerplant: 2 × Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 Pitch Thrust vectoring turbofans
Dry thrust: 23,500 lb[244] (104 kN) each
Thrust with afterburner: 35,000+ lb[6][244] (156+ kN) each
Fuel capacity: 18,000 lb (8,200 kg) internally,[6][241] or 26,000 lb (11,900 kg) with two external fuel tanks[6][241]
Performance
Maximum speed:
At altitude: Mach 2.25 (1,500 mph, 2,410 km/h) [estimated][119]
Supercruise: Mach 1.82 (1,220 mph, 1,963 km/h)[119]
Range: >1,600 nmi (1,840 mi, 2,960 km) with 2 external fuel tanks
Combat radius: 410 nmi (with 100 nmi in supercruise) [240] (471 mi, 759 km)
Ferry range: 2,000 mi (1,738 nmi, 3,219 km)
Service ceiling: 65,000 ft (19,812 m)
Wing loading: 77 lb/ft² (375 kg/m²)
Thrust/weight: 1.09 (1.26 with loaded weight & 50% fuel)
Maximum design g-load: -3.0/+9.0 g[119]
Armament
Guns: 1× 20 mm (0.787 in) M61A2 Vulcan 6-barreled gatling cannon in starboard wing root, 480 rounds
Air to air loadout:
6× AIM-120 AMRAAM
2× AIM-9 Sidewinder
Air to ground loadout:
2× AIM-120 AMRAAM and
2× AIM-9 Sidewinder for self-protection, and one of the following:
2× 1,000 lb (450 kg) JDAM or
8× 250 lb (110 kg) GBU-39 Small Diameter Bombs
Hardpoints: 4× under-wing pylon stations can be fitted to carry 600 US gallon drop tanks or weapons, each with a capacity of 5,000 lb (2,268 kg).[245]
Click here to view the original image of 776x600px.
Based on stats alone, range-wise, J-20 = PAK-FA > F-22
speed-wise, J-20> PAK-FA, F-22
Length-wise, J-20 is the longest of the 3
I wondered if these data were collected from the previous 60 flights
In addition, if they have already even provided the data for WS-15, does this mean they have already obtained results and tested the WS-15? Or could it even be that the WS-15 is actually one of the prototypes, but using conventional exhausts?
Hyperwarp
Captain
whats that? Fancy term for Flares? or something to do with the engine exhaust...
Well maya said high altitude core testing or something like that has been completed (he said this a year or 2 ago). Is it actually used in one of the J-20 prototypes? I strongly doubt it. I am in the AL-31FM# variant club when comes to J-20 engines. Let the WS-15 take its sweet time. Let it mature. Even the PAK-FA won't have the 5th gen engine until the next iteration....
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