J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

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tanlixiang28776

Junior Member
No, of course I am no expert on stealth shaping, but I got eyes I can see. If two of the most eminent and experienced combat aircraft design nations in the world both design their aircraft with same rules, and China with almost zero experience to design even ONE SINGLE AIRCRAFT ON THEIR OWN, the question is, who do you want to believe? China follow their own rule when it has yet to design a single combat aircraft from start to finish (That include THE ENGINE!), or USA and Russia who has over hundred years in aircraft design?

We knew you weren't an expert. No need to re-clarify. And for the whole experience thing you have been repeating it a lot. However that is not a argument so much as a motto you have to keep repeating to yourself to feel better. Its like saying that since China made firearms for far longer than others we will always have the most advanced firearms.

F-35 is consider the inferior stealth. Or "semi-stealth". Its the "low" in "hi-lo" of USAF. And F-22 is designed for air superiority. Unless J-20 is only design to counter F-35, and completely disregard F-22 or PAK FA, I don't see how J-20 is going to survive an encounter with F-22 or PAK FA.

The F 35 is inferior to the F 22 in kinematics, and payload.The F 35's RAM, avionics, and sensor fusion is the most advanced in the world. It is certainly not semi stealth. You have no idea what you are talking about.:mad:
 
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Asymptote

Banned Idiot
We knew you weren't an expert. No need to re-clarify. And for the whole experience thing you have been repeating it a lot. However that is not a argument so much as a motto you have to keep repeating to yourself to feel better. Its like saying that since China made firearms for far longer than others we will always have the most advanced firearms.


Not comparable example. China has yet to design one single combat aircraft from head to tail, including the engine. J-20 would probably be the FIRST such aircraft (or maybe second, if you want to count J-11B as example, but that's circumstantial argument). The point is, the west has taken the firearm idea and improve on it til this day. China lag behind when it stopped development of firearms centuries ago. So unless USA or Russia stops development of stealth all together, its not a comparable example.

Applying your firearm analogy, China would be more like a country who just discovered how to make firearm, and isn't able to fully assemble one together. It can make parts, but its missing technology to make firing pins, and bullet; and yet it believes the firearm would be superior to others with over hundred years of designing and production. Again, its an analogy. Don't mistaken it for fact.


The F 35 is inferior to the F 22 in kinematics, range, and payload.The F 35's RAM, avionics, and sensor fusion is the most advanced in the world. It is certainly not semi stealth. You have no idea what you are talking about.:mad:


Again, you missed my point. So, you think F-35 can go up against F-22 in any sort of fight??
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
No, of course I am no expert on stealth shaping, but I got eyes I can see. If two of the most eminent and experienced combat aircraft design nations in the world both design their aircraft with same rules, and China with almost zero experience to design even ONE SINGLE AIRCRAFT ON THEIR OWN, the question is, who do you want to believe? China follow their own rule when it has yet to design a single combat aircraft from start to finish (That include THE ENGINE!), or USA and Russia who has over hundred years in aircraft design?
That's a package of logical fallacy. Just because one approach works does not preclude other approaches from working, and just because the J-20 doesn't follow the exact same rules as the F-22 or T-50 does not mean it can't be as stealthy. How stealthy a design is is solely based on the physics of radar control, and not based on what other people have done before it. Also, just because a country hasn't done it before doesn't mean they can't. By your logic the US would have never won the space race because the Russians got into space first. Don't use a country's "credibility" or "history" as a substitute for a lack of knowledge on the subject. Not only is it inadequate to prove a negative, but you are using "credibility" and "history" to groundless assumptions about what works and what doesn't work based on premises that have nothing to do with the actual mechanics of the subject. Eyes you certainly have, but an understanding of the limits of your own knowledge you do not.
I don't know what you are talking about. Show me.

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F-35 is consider the inferior stealth. Or "semi-stealth". Its the "low" in "hi-lo" of USAF. And F-22 is designed for air superiority. Unless J-20 is only design to counter F-35, and completely disregard F-22 or PAK FA, I don't see how J-20 is going to survive an encounter with F-22 or PAK FA.
The "inferior stealth" is from the lack of shaping in regards to non-frontal aspects. However, the inlet design only matters for frontal stealth, and in the F-35's case that's just fine.

Also, another logical fallacy. False premise(s). A is stealthier than B but A has no weapons. By your logic does B survive against A? Stealthiness is not the sole determinant of how one aircraft will perform against another. In fact, stealth is a purely defensive property, and determines survival, not kills. The J-20 doesn't even have to be as stealthy as the F-22 or PAK-FA to be comparable. (And ultimately it's not the individual planes but the system integration that determine how good a platform is).
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
Not comparable example. China has yet to design one single combat aircraft from head to tail, including the engine. J-20 would probably be the FIRST such aircraft (or maybe second, if you want to count J-11B as example, but that's circumstantial argument). The point is, the west has taken the firearm idea and improve on it til this day. China lag behind when it stopped development of firearms centuries ago. So unless USA or Russia stops development of stealth all together, its not a comparable example.

Applying your firearm analogy, China would be more like a country who just discovered how to make firearm, and isn't able to fully assemble one together. It can make parts, but its missing technology to make firing pins, and bullet. Again, its an analogy. Don't mistaken it for fact.





Again, you missed my point. So, you think F-35 can go up against F-22 in any sort of fight??
Just in case you don't see it in my other post (since you don't seem to be reading anything I write), by your logic the US would have lost the space race to Russia.
 

tanlixiang28776

Junior Member
Not comparable example. China has yet to design one single combat aircraft from head to tail, including the engine. J-20 would probably be the FIRST such aircraft (or maybe second, if you want to count J-11B as example, but that's circumstantial argument). The point is, the west has taken the fire arm idea and improve on it til this day. China lag behind when it stop development of firearms centuries ago. So unless USA or Russia stops development of stealth all together, its not a comparable example.

Not comparable example? Its far more relevant than any of your examples so far. As for America it is far more knowledgeable in development of stealth aircraft but Russia only had a flying prototype a year before China. Once again you are making the same argument that American, Russian, and Chinese, development move at the same pace. That is not the case.

Again, you missed my point. So, you think F-35 can go up against F-22 in any sort of fight??

Did I? Your point is that since both the F 35 and J 20 have similar intakes the should have similar performance and stealth characteristics. The problem is that the intakes are only one part and the fact that low RCS is a combination of features. The F 35 is a even more mature, and advanced platform compared to the F 22, limited only by its size and configuration. Its been shown that it can even jam the F 22s radar, and has comparable RCS. It can certainly take on the F 22. Its price is not much lower than the F 22 at this point and is going to be produced in the thousands.
 

kyanges

Junior Member
j20f22comparisoncopya.jpg


The F-22's leading edge slat gaps are almost imperceptible, where as J-20's are visible even from long camera shot. And if you look closely, F-22 has only two leading edge slate gaps, while J-20 has six. One can assume such gap is crucial in stealth's performance and reason why USAF minimize such gap in its design and choose to extend the leading edge slates all the way down to wing tips.

Aren't the J-20's gaps more visible because the surfaces they're between are actually moving at the time of the photo?
 

broadsword

Brigadier
Boy, if what you're saying is true, the J-20 designers are going to glean a lot from your posts and apply them in their revisions not to mention educate them on steatlh. Then this site provides as much trove of info to the US watchers as they do to they Chinese engineers.
 

tanlixiang28776

Junior Member
Boy, if what you're saying is true, the J-20 designers are going to glean a lot from your posts and apply them in their revisions not to mention educate them on steatlh. Then this site provides as much trove of info to the US watchers as they do to they Chinese engineers.

LOL;)

You overestimate the intelligence of forumers, and underestimate the knowledge of actual engineers.
 

Asymptote

Banned Idiot
That's a package of logical fallacy. Just because one approach works does not preclude other approaches from working, and just because the J-20 doesn't follow the exact same rules as the F-22 or T-50 does not mean it can't be as stealthy. How stealthy a design is is solely based on the physics of radar control, and not based on what other people have done before it. Also, just because a country hasn't done it before doesn't mean they can't. By your logic the US would have never won the space race because the Russians got into space first. Don't use a country's "credibility" or "history" as a substitute for a lack of knowledge on the subject. Not only is it inadequate to prove a negative, but you are using "credibility" and "history" to groundless assumptions about what works and what doesn't work based on premises that have nothing to do with the actual mechanics of the subject. Eyes you certainly have, but an understanding of the limits of your own knowledge you do not.

Just in case you don't see it in my other post (since you don't seem to be reading anything I write), by your logic the US would have lost the space race to Russia.

If you would excuse me, it takes time to reply - since I don't just reply to you only, there are many other posters in this forum than you.

Now, what I was trying to point out is - experience matters. It certainly doesn't mean China can't catch up, but from a historical point of view, China wasn't able to indigenous design a high performance engine, because IT HAS NO EXPERIENCE. This has plague China for how long now? over 50 years??


So, forget about something as complex as stealth aircraft. With China who still languishing in development hell of completely designing and putting together a fighter - can you understand my skepticism?

Again, even for a technological advanced country like USA with massive infrastructural/technological/talent base, it takes them decades to come to this singular point of achievement. Even Russia has to abandon the failed stealth project at least once. And here is China who can't even master engine comes along and believe it can design the complete stealth package.



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The trailing edge of main wings are align DIAGONALLY to the canards. Seems kinda odd if you look at the F-22 and PAK FA when they are both aligning to the trailing edge of the aft wings and main wings. So I don't see that as alignment. More of misalignment.


The "inferior stealth" is from the lack of shaping in regards to non-frontal aspects. However, the inlet design only matters for frontal stealth, and in the F-35's case that's just fine.

Also, another logical fallacy. False premise(s). A is stealthier than B but A has no weapons. By your logic does B survive against A? Stealthiness is not the sole determinant of how one aircraft will perform against another. In fact, stealth is a purely defensive property, and determines survival, not kills. The J-20 doesn't even have to be as stealthy as the F-22 or PAK-FA to be comparable. (And ultimately it's not the individual planes but the system integration that determine how good a platform is).

No, of course J-20 doesn't have to as stealthy as F-22 or PAK-FA to be comparable. If its subsystem and weapons are superior, it could be comparable. So, let's say J-20 can detect F-22 or PAK-FA and fire its BVR missiles before F-22 or PAK-FA can. Now, this argument - let me just ask you one question. Have you ever heard of ANY weapon system in Chinese inventory that's superior to Russian or American example in same category???

WELL???

If China has no weapon system that's superior to US/Russian (let's be specific, BVR missile most likely PL-12, and radar), what chance does J-20 be comparable to F-22 or PAK FA? In your dream?
 
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