It probably has more to do with both attempts to gain maneuverability advantage 3D thrust vectoring provides and the thrust penalty those plates incur. They absorb some of the energy from the thrust, and with weaker turbofans, China and Russia might not deem them worth the effort. China also seems to at least be making an effort to reduce the signature with those special engine petals, but we don't have enough detail to say anything conclusive.
J-20... The New Generation Fighter II
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It probably has more to do with both attempts to gain maneuverability advantage 3D thrust vectoring provides and the thrust penalty those plates incur. They absorb some of the energy from the thrust, and with weaker turbofans, China and Russia might not deem them worth the effort. China also seems to at least be making an effort to reduce the signature with those special engine petals, but we don't have enough detail to say anything conclusive.
MwRYum
Major
Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter
1. I go with the facts so I am not curious, and in fact, it's not a surprising move: there're lots of high-profile muscle flexing by the US prior to all these, no doubt China needs something new, something shocking enough to show in return; a new aircraft with stealth design, which the US claimed so loudly that Chinese can't get a flight capable prototype make anytime soon fits the bill.
1a. My take is more of a convenience in timing, CAC work schedule meets the time and just happened the Chinese government need something to show, so there we go...
2. Either they've been doing the previous tests in other facilities and have the plane shipped in at night, or they have been doing it in the facility but in different time, but my guess is that it was first leaked not by enthusiasts but by official hands. It's not that difficult, like dip some shark baits and you'd see sharks swimming around soon enough, what's next it the "just enough" level of policing around the sites and so on to make it "by the book".
3. The PR campaign is done, so now work goes on...either they still crunching whatever data from the "public tests", or making necessary amendments to the prototype, or shipped off the plane to other - more secluded - facility for further flight tests.
4. That'd be the logical step to take, to say the least.
5. You all have seen pictures of the celebration party, the banner said that's the EMD of Project 718, or EMD J-20 if you like. It's a technology demonstrator at most right now, showcase that China can design and build something that the West claimed so loud won't have a flight-worthy prototype anytime before 2020...
1. I go with the facts so I am not curious, and in fact, it's not a surprising move: there're lots of high-profile muscle flexing by the US prior to all these, no doubt China needs something new, something shocking enough to show in return; a new aircraft with stealth design, which the US claimed so loudly that Chinese can't get a flight capable prototype make anytime soon fits the bill.
1a. My take is more of a convenience in timing, CAC work schedule meets the time and just happened the Chinese government need something to show, so there we go...
2. Either they've been doing the previous tests in other facilities and have the plane shipped in at night, or they have been doing it in the facility but in different time, but my guess is that it was first leaked not by enthusiasts but by official hands. It's not that difficult, like dip some shark baits and you'd see sharks swimming around soon enough, what's next it the "just enough" level of policing around the sites and so on to make it "by the book".
3. The PR campaign is done, so now work goes on...either they still crunching whatever data from the "public tests", or making necessary amendments to the prototype, or shipped off the plane to other - more secluded - facility for further flight tests.
4. That'd be the logical step to take, to say the least.
5. You all have seen pictures of the celebration party, the banner said that's the EMD of Project 718, or EMD J-20 if you like. It's a technology demonstrator at most right now, showcase that China can design and build something that the West claimed so loud won't have a flight-worthy prototype anytime before 2020...
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pugachev_diver
Banned Idiot
Really? Vectoring plates reduce the thrust? Never thought of that. Just curious, is it hard to manufacture those plates, from a technical point of view.
pugachev_diver
Banned Idiot
Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter
I don't think China has the resources or the technical ability to waste time on just a demonstrator. Poorer countries like the USSR and the French (of course not super poor, just a bit inferior in terms of resources) rarely build a prototype to just prove some new designs and technologies. Mig 1.44 and Su-47 were indeed produced, but that's at the result of super poor situation, they were literally bankrupt, with no further money to do anything. Otherwise, it would be the Uncle Sam style of summoning severals companies to build 4-6 different models, amassing to overall of 20-30 demonstrators to compete for a big contract.
But China doesn't have the resources to be that wasteful, plus, individual designing bureau can't complete a big project like this. It probably requires the cooperation of Shenyang, Chengdu, Hongdu, Xi'an, and many other bureaus to work together to get this project done. Just because it's flew in Chengdu, it doesn't mean that its a Chengdu-only project.
And the other crucial point is the time factor. China is already 20 years behind the US in terms of 4th generation fighter. If China doesn't equip this fighter now, by 2020, the F-22 would probably be a normal fighter with the next generation fighter ready to be fielded. The J-20 would not be advanced anymore, it would just be like another plane on the block, similar to when J-10 entered service. Then China would be always 20-30 years behind the US. They have a great catch up to do. A demonstrator would be a dumb decision.
Plus, even if the banner says "demonstrator", it might have just being a demonstrating model of the overall project. But the project itself is to develop a fully fledged fighter instead of just a demonstration.
I don't think China has the resources or the technical ability to waste time on just a demonstrator. Poorer countries like the USSR and the French (of course not super poor, just a bit inferior in terms of resources) rarely build a prototype to just prove some new designs and technologies. Mig 1.44 and Su-47 were indeed produced, but that's at the result of super poor situation, they were literally bankrupt, with no further money to do anything. Otherwise, it would be the Uncle Sam style of summoning severals companies to build 4-6 different models, amassing to overall of 20-30 demonstrators to compete for a big contract.
But China doesn't have the resources to be that wasteful, plus, individual designing bureau can't complete a big project like this. It probably requires the cooperation of Shenyang, Chengdu, Hongdu, Xi'an, and many other bureaus to work together to get this project done. Just because it's flew in Chengdu, it doesn't mean that its a Chengdu-only project.
And the other crucial point is the time factor. China is already 20 years behind the US in terms of 4th generation fighter. If China doesn't equip this fighter now, by 2020, the F-22 would probably be a normal fighter with the next generation fighter ready to be fielded. The J-20 would not be advanced anymore, it would just be like another plane on the block, similar to when J-10 entered service. Then China would be always 20-30 years behind the US. They have a great catch up to do. A demonstrator would be a dumb decision.
Plus, even if the banner says "demonstrator", it might have just being a demonstrating model of the overall project. But the project itself is to develop a fully fledged fighter instead of just a demonstration.
Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter
Despite deliberate attempts by people to create conspiracy theories, a lot of politics is using what's available for the best effect as opposed to tediously constructing the process for the sole purpose of a single maneuver.
It really isn't that difficult to manufacture those plates from a technical point of view. Due to the round geometry of the turbofan exhaust, square plates will absorb some of the energy when the exhaust hits the plates and is redirected to conform to the shape of the exit.
On a side note, demonstrator can mean different things depending on the social context of the term. This includes differences in a country's design and production process.
Re: J-20... The New Generation Fighter
The Chinese definition for demonstrator is different from that of the West. I recall the J-10 prototype being referred to as a demonstrator back in the days.
The Chinese definition for demonstrator is different from that of the West. I recall the J-10 prototype being referred to as a demonstrator back in the days.
Red___Sword
Junior Member
Yes sir, one by one explain:
First, I recall you have a good reason to delete all the "off topic" debates, that's why I am PLEAING you, the prvious several pages of arguments really shed light to the topic (the way to "understand" J-20), although seem much off when they debates.
Second, I am trying my best to say things "not political", that's why I didn't bluntly saying (look like I have to now):"Every media source, despite which country it comes from, have their own political motivations, if not agenda." - And that's why I call all three types of EXPERT at my #1478, doing what they meant to do.
And last, Hainan Island issue, I am not familiar with the "same problem" Maggern mentioned at #1487 the map mistakes of Norway over Russia. But if CNN and FOX keep using a different color at Hainan Island over China, for the past several decades (during cold war and even today), EVERYTIME! That, can not be called a mere mistake right? And that's what I (suppose) could serve as the statement "they do what they meant to do."
Wanna bet? search english website for world map (or asia map), the more "politically unbiased" the better, showing "geographical concepts" instead of "administrative territory" when different country is MERELY using different color to identify, see how many times Hainan island is using a different color.
Let's look back. You don't fly a first test flight over a large city like Denver or Munich. So the the aircraft was flight tested before reaching Chengdu. It would have been flown in at night in December. It then gives a show of high speed runs, together with the not yet flown other prototype that was wholly built in Chengdu ( the first was assembled somewhere else). It then flew over Chengdu with cheers from everyone, and the next night flew away again to its test field. It left the u/c hanging down during the demonstration flight, because retracting it would have given the game away to everyone. I don't know this. It just seems a reasonable speculation. It would have taken about two weeks from the test program to make a political point to Mr Gates.
As for converting a round engine exhaust to a square one, the reverse happens in many aircraft at the other end, and losses in the intake duct are worse for the propulsion efficiency than those in the exhaust.
As for converting a round engine exhaust to a square one, the reverse happens in many aircraft at the other end, and losses in the intake duct are worse for the propulsion efficiency than those in the exhaust.
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