J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

Status
Not open for further replies.

Martian

Senior Member
Final estimate for J-20 canards' radar return energy is 3.276x10^-19

To my eyes, the only obvious weakness in China's J-20 front-aspect stealth is the canard. There is a total of three radar-signature contributors from the canards.

1. By far, the largest radar-reflecting source is the initial scatter from the canard. I will calculate this today.

2. There is a much smaller secondary scatter (which I'll calculate later to prove that it's inconsequential) as the radar waves bounce off the canard, bounce off the fuselage, and return to the enemy aircraft's receiver.

3. There is also another secondary scatter, which should equal the secondary scatter from the canard, as radar waves bounce off the fuselage, bounce off the canard, and return to the enemy aircraft's receiver.

----------

I have revised upward the size of the J-20's canards in the following calculations.

The J-20 has two canards. I'll estimate that each canard is 2m (or 6 feet) long. I'll further estimate that each canard is 0.75m (or 2.25 feet) high. The total canard area facing an enemy radar is 2m x 0.75m x 2 [canards] = 3 m^2.

I don't have the faintest idea of the illumination cone for a directed military radar. However, to be of any use, I'll estimate that the illumination cone is 1km in radius. If the illumination cone is significantly smaller than 1km, I don't see how you can find an enemy fighter within a reasonable amount of time.

Area of a circle = pi * r^2 = 3.14 * (1km*1km) = 3.14 * (1,000m*1,000m) = 3.14 x 10^6 m^2

Initial scatter ratio = (3 m^2) / (3.14 x 10^6 m^2) = 9.554 x 10^-7 = 0.0000009554. This is the ratio of the emitting radar energy that hits the J-20's canards.

----------

After hitting the canards, we know that 99.999% of the reflected energy is reduced by the military-grade RAM. (See
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
) This means that only 0.00001 (e.g. 1 - 0.99999 = 0.00001) of the impacting radar energy survives contact with the canard's RAM surface.

----------

However, only a tiny fraction of the radar energy that is scattered by the RAM-covered canards will make it back to the enemy aircraft's transmitter/receiver radar.

The total energy that is scattered from the canards' surface will radiate into a spherical shell that is determined by the following formula:

Surface area of a sphere = 4 * pi * r^2

For the radius, we will use 13.5 km from the detection range of an EADS DR 174 ground-based mobile 3D radar.

Total surface area of spherical shell = 4 * 3.14 * (13.5km x 13.5km) = 2289 km^2 = 2289 (1,000m x 1,000m) = 2289 x 10^6 m2 = 2.289 x 10^9 m2

Based on the picture shown at the bottom of the post, I will estimate the radius of the receiving radar to be 0.5m.

Total surface area of receiving radar = pi * r^2 = 3.14 * (0.5m x 0.5m) = 0.785 m^2

The fraction of the reflected radar energy from the RAM-coated canards that is seen by the receiver is:

Reflected radar energy from canards seen by receiver = 0.785 m^2/2.289 x 10^9 m2 = 3.429 x 10^-10

----------

Putting it all together, the amount of the emitting radar energy that returns to the receiver from two RAM-coated canards located 13.5 km away is:

Fraction of emitting radar energy returning to receiver = 9.554 x 10^-7 x 0.00001 x 3.429 x 10^-10 = 3.276 x 10^-19 or 0.0000000000000000003276.

QED: The J-20's canards have an insignificant impact on its stealthiness.

BzYXr.jpg

Figure 5 shows the phased array radar used on the F/A 22 Raptor. This radar employs approximately 2000 microwave transmitter/receiver pairs, each the size of a pack of chewing gum. (courtesy USAF)
 
Last edited:

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: Final estimate for J-20 canards' radar return energy is 3.276x10^-19

To my eyes, the only obvious weakness in China's J-20 front-aspect stealth is the canard. There is a total of three radar-signature contributors from the canards.

1. By far, the largest radar-reflecting source is the initial scatter from the canard. I will calculate this today.

2. There is a much smaller secondary scatter (which I'll calculate later to prove that it's inconsequential) as the radar waves bounce off the canard, bounce off the fuselage, and return to the enemy aircraft's receiver.

3. There is also another secondary scatter, which should equal the secondary scatter from the canard, as radar waves bounce off the fuselage, bounce off the canard, and return to the enemy aircraft's receiver.

----------

I have revised upward the size of the J-20's canards in the following calculations.

The J-20 has two canards. I'll estimate that each canard is 2m (or 6 feet) long. I'll further estimate that each canard is 0.75m (or 2.25 feet) high. The total canard area facing an enemy radar is 2m x 0.75m x 2 [canards] = 3 m^2.

I don't have the faintest idea of the illumination cone for a directed military radar. However, to be of any use, I'll estimate that the illumination cone is 1km in radius. If the illumination cone is significantly smaller than 1km, I don't see how you can find an enemy fighter within a reasonable amount of time.

Area of a circle = pi * r^2 = 3.14 * (1km*1km) = 3.14 * (1,000m*1,000m) = 3.14 x 10^6 m^2

Initial scatter ratio = (3 m^2) / (3.14 x 10^6 m^2) = 9.554 x 10^-7 = 0.0000009554. This is the ratio of the emitting radar energy that hits the J-20's canards.

----------

After hitting the canards, we know that 99.999% of the reflected energy is reduced by the military-grade RAM. (See
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
) This means that only 0.00001 (e.g. 1 - 0.99999 = 0.00001) of the impacting radar energy survives contact with the canard's RAM surface.

----------

However, only a tiny fraction of the radar energy that is scattered by the RAM-covered canards will make it back to the enemy aircraft's transmitter/receiver radar.

The total energy that is scattered from the canards' surface will radiate into a spherical shell that is determined by the following formula:

Surface area of a sphere = 4 * pi * r^2

For the radius, we will use 13.5 km from the detection range of an EADS DR 174 ground-based mobile 3D radar.

Total surface area of spherical shell = 4 * 3.14 * (13.5km x 13.5km) = 2289 km^2 = 2289 (1,000m x 1,000m) = 2289 x 10^6 m2 = 2.289 x 10^9 m2

Based on the picture shown at the bottom of the post, I will estimate the radius of the receiving radar to be 0.5m.

Total surface area of receiving radar = pi * r^2 = 3.14 * (0.5m x 0.5m) = 0.785 m^2

The fraction of the reflected radar energy from the RAM-coated canards that is seen by the receiver is:

Reflected radar energy from canards seen by receiver = 0.785 m^2/2.289 x 10^9 m2 = 3.429 x 10^-10

----------

Putting it all together, the amount of the emitting radar energy that returns to the receiver from two RAM-coated canards located 13.5 km away is:

Fraction of emitting radar energy returning to receiver = 9.554 x 10^-7 x 0.00001 x 3.429 x 10^-10 = 3.276 x 10^-19 or 0.0000000000000000003276.

QED: The J-20's canards have an insignificant impact on its stealthiness.

BzYXr.jpg

Figure 5 shows the phased array radar used on the F/A 22 Raptor. This radar employs approximately 2000 microwave transmitter/receiver pairs, each the size of a pack of chewing gum. (courtesy USAF)
Not to be a naysayer, but I'm just wondering what personal credentials you have for these RCS calculations. The best form of verification for the validity of any claim is to have some other expert corroborate, but that's probably hard to find right now. :p
 

Martian

Senior Member
Re: Final estimate for J-20 canards' radar return energy is 3.276x10^-19

Not to be a naysayer, but I'm just wondering what personal credentials you have for these RCS calculations. The best form of verification for the validity of any claim is to have some other expert corroborate, but that's probably hard to find right now. :p

My analytic process, citations of reputable open-source material, and calculations have been thoroughly detailed. If you are unhappy with the result, feel free to criticize the step-by-step analysis on its merits.

Your attempt to deflect the discussion from my painstaking analysis is irrelevant.

When I began my calculation of the radar energy return on the J-20's canards, I had no idea what the result would be. If the conclusion was a significant radar signature, I would have docked points from the J-20's stealthiness. However, the conclusion showed that the effect of the J-20's canards requires 19 decimal places to see an effect.

To answer your question, from my meticulous calculations, it should be obvious to you that I have an engineering background. I have a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and I'm a member of Eta Kappa Nu (e.g. American electrical engineering honor society).
 

cataphract

New Member
Re: Final estimate for J-20 canards' radar return energy is 3.276x10^-19

My analytic process, citations of reputable open-source material, and calculations have been thoroughly detailed. If you are unhappy with the result, feel free to criticize the step-by-step analysis on its merits.

Your attempt to deflect the discussion from my painstaking analysis is irrelevant.

When I began my calculation of the radar energy return on the J-20's canards, I had no idea what the result would be. If the conclusion was a significant radar signature, I would have docked points from the J-20's stealthiness. However, the conclusion showed that the effect of the J-20's canards requires 19 decimal places to see an effect.

To answer your question, from my meticulous calculations, it should be obvious to you that I have an engineering background. I have a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and I'm a member of Eta Kappa Nu (e.g. American electrical engineering honor society).

I have extremely high doubts that RAM will take away 99.999% of radar energy.

Answers.com isn't really a source.

Also, anyone noticed how big the actuators of the J-20's wing flaps are? That can't be good for RCS reduction
 
Last edited:

Martian

Senior Member
Re: Final estimate for J-20 canards' radar return energy is 3.276x10^-19

I have extremely high doubts that RAM will take away 99.999% of radar energy.

Answers.com isn't really a source.

Also, anyone noticed how big the actuators of the J-20's wing flaps are? That can't be good for RCS reduction

Since you're a new member and appear totally clueless, I would appreciate it if you clicked on the link that I provided before giving me an offhand and flippant reply. The Answers.com link is to an article by McGraw-Hill encyclopedia. McGraw-Hill is one of the largest publishers in the United States and they were the owners of Businessweek, until its recent sale to Bloomberg. My citation on RAM effectiveness is McGraw-Hill Science and Technology Encyclopedia, not Answers.com.

Sci-Tech Encyclopedia
McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science and Technology, 5th edition, published by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.
If you're looking for in-depth articles on disciplines from biomedical science to chemistry to nanotechnology, your search ends here. With thousands of entries, illustrations and related topics, the Encyclopedia of Science and Technology has it all.

Qucs3.jpg
 
Last edited:

cataphract

New Member
Re: Final estimate for J-20 canards' radar return energy is 3.276x10^-19

In that case, why do the AF interviews insist on the RAM playing a small part of stealth, but the shaping provides a larger impact?
 

Martian

Senior Member
Re: Final estimate for J-20 canards' radar return energy is 3.276x10^-19

In that case, why do the AF interviews insist on the RAM playing a small part of stealth, but the shaping provides a larger impact?

I have no idea what interviews that you are referring to. It should be obvious to you that both RAM and shaping are important in reducing the radar signature of an aircraft. In my earlier posts, I have identified ten significant stealth-design features that are present in China's J-20. Alternatively, you can watch my popular video (e.g. 50,000 views in one month) on China's J-20 stealth fighter.

[video=youtube;1EBztMJBhAs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EBztMJBhAs[/video]
 
Last edited:

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Re: Final estimate for J-20 canards' radar return energy is 3.276x10^-19

that because generally speaking that is correct!
Everything else being equal the shape does affect RCS more than RAM. You can coat say a B-52 with gobs and gobs of RAM and the RCS will still be HUGE!!!
 

Inst

Captain
that's sort of useless because you didn't include comparisons at all. For all we know the statue of liberty could have an RCS in the 10^-19 range, so that your canards could still be huge.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top