J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

stannislas said:

no i'm question your reason for j-20 to have a gun and will install if ws-15 was introduced

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Well then the F35 XA100 example makes no sense, but anyways.

The early J20 production batches have a gun port and maintenance panel sized and shaped perfectly for a gun, so it was clearly a design feature. The gun was deleted from the current model due to delays with the WS15, but once the WS15 is ready, there would be little reason not to add it back on since the downside would be minimal.

plawolf said:

Well then the F35 XA100 example makes no sense, but anyways.

The early J20 production batches have a gun port and maintenance panel sized and shaped perfectly for a gun, so it was clearly a design feature. The gun was deleted from the current model due to delays with the WS15, but once the WS15 is ready, there would be little reason not to add it back on since the downside would be minimal.

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well, the f-35 XA100 case just as riduculous as your WS-15 j-20 gun port exmaple

and no, just because there is a panel doesn't means it's a gun port, that's just wishful thinking, pretty much like tea reading or cloud reading, Yang Wei, repeated himself 3 or 4 times about how fighter these days shouldn't get into a dogfight, based on that philosophy and how bad gun could performed in a modern day A2A, it would be foolish to think that J-20 would re-introduce a gun after 11 years, especially J-20 has two side weapon bays, which are sufficient enough

stannislas said:

well, the f-35 XA100 case just as riduculous as your WS-15 j-20 gun port exmaple

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Thanks, if you think those two examples are equivalent, then it’s clear I’m wasting my time here.

stannislas said:

and no, just because there is a panel doesn't means it's a gun port, that's just wishful thinking, pretty much like tea reading or cloud reading, Yang Wei, repeated himself 3 or 4 times about how fighter these days shouldn't get into a dogfight, based on that philosophy and how bad gun could performed in a modern day A2A, it would be foolish to think that J-20 would re-introduce a gun after 11 years, especially J-20 has two side weapon bays, which are sufficient enough

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Well, it should go without saying, but there is a vast difference between shouldn’t and couldn’t.

You shouldn’t load something beyond its stated max load capacity, but all good designers build in at least double that load tolerance in their designs. It’s very basic contingency planning.

If Yang Wei truly thought agility doesn’t matter, he would have came up with a radically different design. The big costs to make the J20 a good dogfighters have already been spent in terms of the very design of the airframe itself. Compared to that, the extra weight from a gun is peanuts.

The current set up without a gun is good enough, but why settle for good enough when you can get ‘perfect’ at almost no cost once you have the (weight) budget for it with the WS15?

plawolf said:

Well, it should go without saying, but there is a vast difference between shouldn’t and couldn’t.

You shouldn’t load something beyond its stated max load capacity, but all good designers build in at least double that load tolerance in their designs. It’s very basic contingency planning.

If Yang Wei truly thought agility doesn’t matter, he would have came up with a radically different design. The big costs to make the J20 a good dogfighters have already been spent in terms of the very design of the airframe itself. Compared to that, the extra weight from a gun is peanuts.

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of course J-20 could dogfight well, but that does not make it a dogfighter, especially J-20 is definately not intend to dogfight as much as f-22 and su-57,

make one able to do something, or even good at something, doesn't mean that certain something was the one all intend to do, so your logic doesn't make sense, J-20 can dogfight well is a sufficient condition to be a good dogfighter, but non-necessary condition to be a dogfighter

also, most importantly, you don't understand the value of agility in BVR right?...
let me remind you, why J-20 pilots keep saying, J-20 is optimize for its supersoinic performance, in subsoinc, J-20 performs just as well as J-11C and J-16, but it completely dominate the supersoinc. and what's the use for supersonic agility? BVR

plawolf said:

The current set up without a gun is good enough, but why settle for good enough when you can get ‘perfect’ at almost no cost once you have the (weight) budget for it with the WS15?

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this is not a good reason to add something that could be completely useless, if it change to WS-15, under the same speed, J-20 could have higher top speed, higher cruiser speed, better payload, better agility and etc. these could make j-20 fly faster and even better at BVR, which are much more valuable then adding a gun to j-20 and make it dogfight

Franklin said:

If hypothetically a group of J-20 and F-35 were to merge the J-20 without a gun will be f**ked.....

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.... wait, what ?

If you have no missiles + no cannon, why the hell are you engaging ?

The scenario you are describing is the same as being out of ammo (gun or no gun).

In which case, you don't merge. You turn around, hit the burners and go home.

Mohsin77 said:

.... wait, what ?

If you have no missiles + no cannon, why the hell are you engaging ?

The scenario you are describing is the same as being out of ammo (gun or no gun).

In which case, you don't merge. You turn around, hit the burners and go home.

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He doesn't know that a modern airborne cannon has enough rounds to fire for 2-3 seconds. He probably plays too much Ace Combat.

siegecrossbow said:

He doesn't know that a modern airborne cannon has enough rounds to fire for 2-3 seconds. He probably plays too much Ace Combat.

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No, you need to copy the Japanese and cut the enemy fighter aircraft in half using wing steel that is folded 1,000 times.

plawolf said:

... while the F35 has guns...

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Only the A variant (i.e. the CTOL variant) of F-35 is equipped with an internal gun (GAU-22/A, 220 rounds).

Both the B (i.e. VTOL) and C (i.e. CATOBAR) variants of the F-35 does not have any internal gun - they instead rely on "a Terma A/S multi-mission pod (MMP) carrying the GAU-22/A and 220 rounds; the pod is mounted on the centerline of the aircraft and shaped to reduce its radar cross-section."

Of course, if the PLA does require a gun to be installed on some of their 5th-generation fighters later on, I do believe they are able to do the same as the Americans by fitting a gun pod (with stealthier designs of course) underneath some of their J-20s and J-35/J-31s.

But honestly, with the introduction of newer, more advanced, long-range and (soon)ultra-long range AAMs, coupled with the further advancement of BVR technology making WVR engagements/dogfights even less of a preferable choice compared to the times of the Vietnam War - Unless the PLA has no other alternative aircrafts/UAVs that could be used for ground straffing role (which is pretty much what the guns mounted on fighter jets are good for in these days and into the future), then I don't really see much of a point for the J-20s and J-35/J-31s to be mounted with an external gun pod either.

Not-jealous Su-30 pilot.