J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

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Blitzo

Blitzo

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siegecrossbow said:
I think the pilot's point is that the aircraft is easy to operate but difficult to operate well.
Click to expand...

So I was racking my head for a bit wondering why this phrase sounded so familiar.

Then I remembered I heard almost the exact phrase from a F-35 test pilot (former RCAF F-18 pilot and with 5000+ hours of hours on F-18, F-15, Typhoon and all three F-35 variants) talking about the F-35 and the differences that new pilots training to start with the F-35 will have.

The specific part of this podcast is at 1 hr 5 minutes, but I highly recommend everyone have a listen to the whole episode because it talks about the F-35 as a whole, and really helps to demolish some of the popular misconceptions about the aircraft (misconceptions of which even some people on this forum still hold) -- but more importantly the discussions about the 5th generation experience is one that is very relevant to J-20 as well.


Overall, the F-35 is a very easy aircraft to fly, but is conveyed as an aircraft with significant potential that is difficult to fully exploit.

At 1 hr and 5 minutes, the pilot Lt Col Flynn discusses how the F-35's sheer capability in terms of sensor fusion, situational awareness, and stealth, means that pilots being trained for the F-35 now are all meant to be "independent decision makers" and to "think autonomously" more so than ever before.

That sounds a little bit simplistic, but he raises the example how in a four ship flight of legacy generation aircraft, are trained in two ship sections with a lead and a wingman, where the wingman largely follows the flight lead with less responsibility and authority than the lead.

With F-35s, every pilot in an entire four ship flight are tacticians themselves, with more autonomy and responsibility than ever before. The difference in sensors, datalinking, stealth and situational awareness overall means that unlocking the true potential of the aircraft doesn't require a pilot to only fly and fight, but to fly and fight and actively plan at the same time.




That all sounds very similar to what Chen Liu is saying, doesn't it?

Essentially -- 5th generation fighter are very easy to fight and fly in.... but to exploit the true, full potential that 5th generation fighters offer compare to legacy fighters, it requires pilots and pilot training to become more autonomous, able to carry out more complex decision making and interface with more friendly forces than every before.
To paraphase Siege's post, I think the best interpretation of the pilot's words is: "5th gen aircraft/J-20 is very easy to operate, but difficult to exploit its true, full potential" -- and that is solvable by pilot training designed from the outset to have them take advantage of 5th generation capabilities.

To clarify, I believe that a 5th generation fighter flown "to partial potential" will still be able to roflstomp legacy 4th, 4.5th generation fighters flown by the best pilots when circumstances are equal (or even in circumstances unfavourable to the 5th gen aircraft).
However, a 5th generation fighter flown "to full potential" will be able to exert even more laughably superior kill ratios against legacy aircraft than they already demonstrate.


Overall, I think people significantly underestimate the advances of superior situational awareness and superior stealth offers to warfighting capabilities, especially in the air to air domain.
If anyone has ever played a real time strategy game, it is the equivalent of having the benefit of the fog of war turned off for yourself and playing on a big screen LED monitor while your opponent is playing the same game with fog of war turned on, playing on a early 2000s CRT.

Your opponent would be busy just trying to scout, see where everything is, on an interface that conveys information poorly, unable to see beyond immediate line of sight, where they are fighting the game as much as fighting you.
But you on the other hand, have the eye of god and are able to produce exactly what you need, to position your units exactly where you want and time your moves and attacks exactly how you wish.

It is that sort of informational advantage that allows 5th generation fighters to achieve those sort of crazy kill ratios against legacy aircraft.
 
siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow

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Blitzo said:
So I was racking my head for a bit wondering why this phrase sounded so familiar.

Then I remembered I heard almost the exact phrase from a F-35 test pilot (former RCAF F-18 pilot and with 5000+ hours of hours on F-18, F-15, Typhoon and all three F-35 variants) talking about the F-35 and the differences that new pilots training to start with the F-35 will have.

The specific part of this podcast is at 1 hr 5 minutes, but I highly recommend everyone have a listen to the whole episode because it talks about the F-35 as a whole, and really helps to demolish some of the popular misconceptions about the aircraft (misconceptions of which even some people on this forum still hold) -- but more importantly the discussions about the 5th generation experience is one that is very relevant to J-20 as well.


Overall, the F-35 is a very easy aircraft to fly, but is conveyed as an aircraft with significant potential that is difficult to fully exploit.

At 1 hr and 5 minutes, the pilot Lt Col Flynn discusses how the F-35's sheer capability in terms of sensor fusion, situational awareness, and stealth, means that pilots being trained for the F-35 now are all meant to be "independent decision makers" and to "think autonomously" more so than ever before.

That sounds a little bit simplistic, but he raises the example how in a four ship flight of legacy generation aircraft, are trained in two ship sections with a lead and a wingman, where the wingman largely follows the flight lead with less responsibility and authority than the lead.

With F-35s, every pilot in an entire four ship flight are tacticians themselves, with more autonomy and responsibility than ever before. The difference in sensors, datalinking, stealth and situational awareness overall means that unlocking the true potential of the aircraft doesn't require a pilot to only fly and fight, but to fly and fight and actively plan at the same time.




That all sounds very similar to what Chen Liu is saying, doesn't it?

Essentially -- 5th generation fighter are very easy to fight and fly in.... but to exploit the true, full potential that 5th generation fighters offer compare to legacy fighters, it requires pilots and pilot training to become more autonomous, able to carry out more complex decision making and interface with more friendly forces than every before.
To paraphase Siege's post, I think the best interpretation of the pilot's words is: "5th gen aircraft/J-20 is very easy to operate, but difficult to exploit its true, full potential" -- and that is solvable by pilot training designed from the outset to have them take advantage of 5th generation capabilities.

To clarify, I believe that a 5th generation fighter flown "to partial potential" will still be able to roflstomp legacy 4th, 4.5th generation fighters flown by the best pilots when circumstances are equal (or even in circumstances unfavourable to the 5th gen aircraft).
However, a 5th generation fighter flown "to full potential" will be able to exert even more laughably superior kill ratios against legacy aircraft than they already demonstrate.


Overall, I think people significantly underestimate the advances of superior situational awareness and superior stealth offers to warfighting capabilities, especially in the air to air domain.
If anyone has ever played a real time strategy game, it is the equivalent of having the benefit of the fog of war turned off for yourself and playing on a big screen LED monitor while your opponent is playing the same game with fog of war turned on, playing on a early 2000s CRT.

Your opponent would be busy just trying to scout, see where everything is, on an interface that conveys information poorly, unable to see beyond immediate line of sight, where they are fighting the game as much as fighting you.
But you on the other hand, have the eye of god and are able to produce exactly what you need, to position your units exactly where you want and time your moves and attacks exactly how you wish.

It is that sort of informational advantage that allows 5th generation fighters to achieve those sort of crazy kill ratios against legacy aircraft.
Click to expand...

Indeed. I think the PAC Air commander Wilsbach also stated his disdain for flying Fifth gen fighters like fourth gen with superior performance.
 
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