J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VIII
- Thread starter Blitzo
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chabudou doctrine of air warfare gg
Kinematic performance will matter in the next air war. Advantages in performance curve and loiter time as well as combat radius are non-negligible factors. I think we all agree that the PLAAF would find WS-15 equipped J20A preferable, and that the notion of core improvements to a system’s power plant/energy generation being seen as low priority would be unthinkable.
Logistical performance is just as important. It’s not worth it if the spec increases over the current (Rightly not that bad WS-10C) are less than extremely significant; but the MTBO or reliability of the replacement engines are abysmal garbage, grounding your wide swathes of your fleet for vast periods of time, or attriting sorties before contact with the enemy.
I think we’re still all plenty disappointed with the engine industry though, given how long, intensive, well funded the WS15 project has been (as a core pillar of the aeroengine and aersopace sector of china as a whole) and how it’s been seemingly continually delayed or reworked and implementation postponed. (A 20+ year project, first run in 2005) Especially now that we’re at a milestone (J20A) and that implementation is resembling a past fiasco.
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I would recommend that people here read the recent posts by I_H8_Y8s on Reddit to get an understanding of where the Chinese aerospace industry is today. In short, China's technical capability has reached the global leading edge; what's missing is scale. The capacity to produce these advanced engines in numbers that match or exceed the US isn't there yet. This is being worked on.
There is no indication that there's a problem with the WS-15 or that it's been delayed and we shouldn't assume there are design flaws until we get some evidence. What we're seeing now is a consequence of the airframe already being in FRP and the engine just having entered LRIP essentially yesterday. There just aren't enough powerplants to equip the airframes coming off the production line.
Given this reality, the PLAAF has the following options:
The difference between 2 and 3 comes down to production efficiency and logistics. Mixing batches like this will introduce frictions and might lower overall production numbers, once again something the PLAAF won't tolerate. In any case, the rumor we have is consistent with both scenarios, but 3 is more likely because the PLAAF's priority is growing its 5th gen fleet as fast as possible, which means minimizing complications.
There is no indication that there's a problem with the WS-15 or that it's been delayed and we shouldn't assume there are design flaws until we get some evidence. What we're seeing now is a consequence of the airframe already being in FRP and the engine just having entered LRIP essentially yesterday. There just aren't enough powerplants to equip the airframes coming off the production line.
Given this reality, the PLAAF has the following options:
- Delay entry of the J-20A until the WS-15 is ready in sufficient numbers.
- Have some J-20As use WS-10Cs and others use the available WS-15s.
- Make the first batch of J-20A entirely with WS-10C until production of the WS-15 is high enough.
The difference between 2 and 3 comes down to production efficiency and logistics. Mixing batches like this will introduce frictions and might lower overall production numbers, once again something the PLAAF won't tolerate. In any case, the rumor we have is consistent with both scenarios, but 3 is more likely because the PLAAF's priority is growing its 5th gen fleet as fast as possible, which means minimizing complications.
You summed up really well in this post.. exactly the same thing i have said in my previous massage.
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The comment from the chinese poster about half.
Might mean half are using WS10 and the other half WS15 lol.
Might mean half are using WS10 and the other half WS15 lol.
Alright, I moved all the more explicitly engine related posts to engine thread. Let's please keep the conversation here to J-20 and stuff about general complaint of China's Engine development to that other thread.
If the compressor is different then the whole engine cycle is different. Please don’t blindly speculate without consulting the basic mechanics.
This is the most rational post in a while on this. It takes the PLA years to introduce new engines into their airframes. Only now are we starting to see WS-20 equipped Y-20s rolling out at a good rate.Guys this is going to be lengthy post. please read this.
i have read all the messages and i can understand the anger of our valuable members like @ACuriousPLAFan @ZeEa5KPul @Tomboy and others.
first let me clear some basic points then i shall talk about WS-15 Engine..
he is the Lui Daxiang, Member of China's academy of Engineering and Father of China's Turbofan Engine industry. man has 60+ years long service in this industry. he was the biggest critics of AVIC Engine policies. and point out all the shortcomings.
''I have been dealing with aircraft engines for more than 60 years. During these 60 years, I spent half of the time in the mountains," Liu recalled''
Man appeared in China Aviation industry Conference 2022 and broke silence on many interesting things.
1. AECC fully conquered 3rd/4th Generation Aero Engines technology. and broke through the technical barrier of next gen Engine. he also present the chart to the audience.
2. by 2035 China will be the Tier1 player in Aero Engine industry.
his words are the highest authority in mainland China. nothing comes above him when it comes to gas turbine tech.
in March 2023, AECC officially announced WS-15 entered in LRIP stage. but this is interesting because this doesn't match with current state of WS-15 engine i mean we all are waiting for the full scale production. this announcement confirmed one thing, WS-15 design has frozen. it means there is no technical issue with this machine as first confirmed by Lui Daxiang then later on AECC announce..
so what is the current issue with WS-15 ?? replying below
grounded is the big word. we barely have few units of J-20A with WS-15 engines. so you can say this, WS-15 production has been halted or stopped due to some problems.
when last time i was talking with my source, he was quite confident about WS-15 production will scale up this year. cute orca and Ayi too said the same thing.. but what just happened ???
there is a supply chain/components manufacturing issue with WS-15 right now. Technical bar is too high this time. you need 200+ WS-15 for enormous J-20 production. its not a cakewalk
PW/GE have global suppliers. F-135 components comes from 10 different countries.
so if WS-15 delay again, its not a big problem guys. It's very much possible that later units will have the WS-15. better to stop engine production than grounded the entire fleet later on.
just relax bro.
WS-15 TIT is not 1850K.. its higher than this
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Edit - a bit delay in advanced Turbofan is absolutely a normal thing. don't you think AECC isn't working on it ?? if anyone follow my massages on this forum, WS-15 supply chain is different in comparison with WS-10/WS-20. this time AECC Shenyang went with the different set of suppliers. so scale up production of thousands of precision components is hell of a task.
100 percent agreed with @siegecrossbow . J-50/J-36 spoiled us. Not even a little bit of bad news is unacceptable here..
The fact is, the PLA focus on slow and steady progress. WS-10 is a solid, reliable platform and suitable for the mission profile of the J-20 right now. No need to rush production when they are looking way further than WS-15.
PLA never let perfection get in the way of good imo