J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

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taxiya

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I'm pretty sure there's a misunderstanding, in that what's used in radomes is by now quite common and presumably not the same thing being hinted at in the CCTV report. If that's so, there's not much to clear up.
(Disclaimer: this comment made without any technical knowledge.)

Just out of curiosity, what does the "
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" qualify as?
Regardless misunderstanding or not, I have explained the difference between what F-22 uses and what CCTV presented. That should be enough to clarify things.

About fiber mat, here I quote the link.
But during development, something happened. First, program officials began hinting the F-35 might be stealthier than the F-22; hard to believe, given its less-disciplined shape. Then officials started referring to a material secret, a “conductive layer . . . where the magic happens.” In May of 2010, Tom Burbage, then executive vice president for the F-35 program, disclosed the incorporation of “fiber mat” technology, describing it as the “biggest technical breakthrough we’ve had on this program.”

The fiber mat would replace many RAM appliques by being cured into the composite skin, making it durable. Burbage further specified the mat featured a “non-directional weave”— which would ensure EM properties do not vary with angle. Baked into the skin, this layer could vary in thickness as necessary. Lockheed declined to provide further details, citing classification. Without further evidence, fiber mat would imply use of fibers, rather than particles, which would make for stronger surfaces and the word “conductive” points to carbon-based RAM.

But only a month before Burbage’s disclosure, Lockheed filed a patent claiming the first method of producing a durable RAM panel. The patent details a method for growing carbon nanotubes (CNT) on any kind of fiber—glass, carbon, ceramic or metal—with unprecedented precision in control of length, density, number of walls, connectivity and even orientation. The CNT-infused fibers can absorb or reflect radar, and connectivity among the CNTs provides pathways for induced currents.

Significantly, the CNTs can be impregnated with iron or ferrite nanoparticles. Fibers can have differing CNT densities along their lengths and homogenous fibers can be layered or mixed. The embodiments described include front layers with impedance matching air, use of quarter-wavelength depths for cancellation, stepped or continuous CNT-density gradients and continuously varying densities at specific depths for broadband absorption. The fibers can be disposed with “random orientation” in materials including “a woven fabric, a non-woven fiber mat and a fiber ply.”

The patent claims composites with CNT-infused fibers are capable of absorbing EM waves from 0.1 MHz to 60 GHz, a bandwidth unheard of in commercial absorbers, with particular effectiveness in L- through K-band. The patent does not quantify the absorptivity, but does say the panels would be “nearly a black body across . . . various radar bands.” Also, interestingly, a layer can be composed so an attached computer can read the induced currents in the fibers, making the layer a radar receiver.

While the patent mentions stealth aircraft, it does not mention the F-35 specifically, and the manufacturing readiness level of the material at the time it was granted is not known. But the proximity in timing and technology of the filing to the “fiber mat” disclosure is hard to ignore. Asked to comment on whether CNT-infused fiber RAM is in use on the F-35 and whether it is the technology to which Burbage had referred, Lockheed Martin spokesman Mike Rein stated only, “We have nothing to add to what was outlined in the patent submittal.”

It seems to be weaving conductive fibers (CNT infused) in composite material. It is another approach but different from what CCTV presented. The bold texts above indicate something in the same vain as patterns in the metamaterial. They try to reach the same goal. The main difference as I see is easiness of making the desired pattern, steps of density gradients. In China's case, the pattern is printed on the substrate, in LM's patent, the steps of density are achieved by controlling things such as force (therefor the stress) of laying fibers one layer above another, the thickness of each layers. Without knowing more than the patent's words, I would prefer the China approach as being easier to achieve.

I think Plawolf's post #2089 is a good comment. It is traditional fabrication procedure vs. recent developed fabrication procedures. Inter-breeding vs. genetic engineering (without natural breeding). Forging/Casting/Milling vs. 3D printing.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
A little trip down memory lane.

This is an earlier report that sounds a lot like the new material recently revealed as being used on the J20.

All this talk of RAM taking up a quarter of the plane’s weight is ignoring or igorant of recent publicised Chinese RAM advancements.

Not this was published in 2015.

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Not the site I originally read the story on, but it was the first that came up with a quick search.

Ignore the typically added on editorial nonsense and just focus on the parts referring to the Chinese paper.

Some interesting extracts, highlights are mine.
 

Blitzo

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Seems like I've missed something important about the J-20 using some sort of special RAM?

Not necessarily "important", it's just really a debate about whether a recent documentary posted a few pages back about a new and relevant advancement with applicability for J-20 is real or not and how it compares or exceeds other past solutions to RAM/material based RCS reduction.

It's been going for five or so pages, have a look at the original documentary back there if you're interested.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Not necessarily "important", it's just really a debate about whether a recent documentary posted a few pages back about a new and relevant advancement with applicability for J-20 is real or not and how it compares or exceeds other past solutions to RAM/material based RCS reduction.

It's been going for five or so pages, have a look at the original documentary back there if you're interested.

Thanks, I'll take a peek.
 

Figaro

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J-20の総設計士の楊偉が、J-20がメタマテリアルを採用した、と明言した。先日CCTVのドキュメンタリーによる、中国は世界初のメタマテリアルを量産された国になった。写真はドキュメンタリーによるメタマテリアル生産ライン

Translated from Japanese by
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J-20 's total architect, Yang Wei, declared that J-20 had adopted the meta-material. The other day, in a CCTV documentary, China became the world's first mass-produced meta-material. Photography is a documentary on the production line of meta-materials

DYskxwXU0AA_OjM.jpg DYskxxCV4AEgwDe.jpg DYsk2kFVAAARdL2.jpg DYskxwfU8AUKQmq.jpg

J-20 is not just a "ram"
Some analysts in China described the new J-20 fighter as a "ram" used to "smash" an enemy country's air carrier, "a needle that will pierce the net". As the program's chief engineer, YANG has another understanding.

"In the current family of Chinese hunters, the J-20 is the most powerful member. And as he is the strongest Chinese carrier in air superiority, he will inevitably be used in the most critical scenarios in the fight, "says YANG," but qualifying him as a ram is a bit of a let down. "
Really important blurb here. Notice the term "air superiority"; Yang Wei just personally refuted all the striker/interceptor nonsense going around for the better part of a decade now ...
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
From Henri K blog
Yoo Wei of the J-20 general designer declared that the J-20 adopted the metamaterial. According to the documentary of CCTV the other day, China became a country mass - produced world 's first metamaterials. The photograph is a documentary metamaterial production line

DYskxwXU0AA_OjM.jpg


DYskxwfU8AUKQmq.jpg

DYskxxCV4AEgwDe.jpg

DYsk2kFVAAARdL2.jpg
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Yang Wei NPC video ... he talks about the J-20 in depth. He address key performance parameters @ 1:20
He didn't really give parameters, which is as expected. He just said that J-20 has excellent stealth, extreme supersonic handling/ combat capabilities with greater range and heavier payload resulting from many technological breakthroughs that gave J-20 many aces up its sleeve. He gave absolutely nothing about specific parameters and I think that's how it should be if he was in his right mind.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Yang Wei NPC video ... he talks about the J-20 in depth. He address key performance parameters @ 1:20
This guy is too good. I bet he is the chief designer and engineer for China's stealth bomber. This is why SAC can not match up with CAC.:D:cool:
 
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