I know, but the length difference is minimal, and if length really is a problem for staggering some adjustment to the fins shouldn’t be too difficult to allow for less aggressive staggering than the PL-12.
J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI
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Look at how tightly the PL-15s are packed in the weapons bay. I don't think there's enough margin to allow for any offset.
As I mentioned earlier, I really don’t think we should be using the demonstrator variant’s weapons bay to judge.Look at how tightly the PL-15s are packed in the weapons bay. I don't think there's enough margin to allow for any offset.
If we believe the original source being discussed, the J-20 fits 6 PL-12s but only 4 PL-15s. Based on that comment, whatever else we conclude about the demonstrator version’s weapons bay, the production version’s bay can fit a missile with that body diameter in a staggered configuration.
That also means the bay is longer than the length of a PL-12, and the difference in length should be at least about the length of the PL-12’s back fin. If the J-20 can’t fit as many PL-15s as PL-12s in a staggered configuration because the PL-15 is slightly longer, then at least in theory so long as the PL-15 isn’t as long as the bay itself, if you reduce the stagger you can fit the same number of PL-15s, which may require some modification to the missile’s fins. It seems unlikely to me that the PL-15 is longer than the PL-12 by the length of the PL-12’s back fin, which is why I’m insisting that fitting 6 PL-15s, even if in modified form, should be possible if the J-20 can fit 6 PL-12s.
I would not take it as a given that the dimensions between the demonstrator version’s bays and the production versions’s bays are nearly identical to the point of insignificance. Even a few centimeters could be the difference between 4 mraams and 6.
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To admit I don't know why what's the new information that led to the conclusion to fit either "6 PL-12s [staggered] but only 4 PL-15s]??
As for the dimension we agree but my concern is still that even in the LRIP-birds there is simply no third pylon or adapter to carry a third AAM.
It was in Klon’s post below:
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/j-20-5th-gen-fighter-thread-vi.t8169/page-196#post-497243
Apparently, at least based on what Sinosoldier has said, the person Klon quoted did work for the J-15’s sea trials.
To be clear I’m not saying that the J-20 should be able to fit six PL-15s without question, just that *if* it can fit six PL-12s then I don’t see how it couldn’t fit six PL-15s.
As for whether the LRIP birds can mount 3 pylons per side in its bay or only 2, as I recall we haven’t seen *any* pylons in the LRIP birds, so I don’t think we can really say what can or can’t fit there. If the holes in the ceiling of the weapons bay are for mounting pylons, it’s a bit open ended whether the single point hole in the centerline can also mount pylons, or if only double point holes on the side can. Too many unknowns to say, but if we’re to believe the comment that Klon cited (and I’m not arguing that we should treat it as incontrovertible) then that would all but confirm that the bay can mount three pylons per side.
I completely agree with you - sorry if I was misleading - also I agree with you, that what we've seen are no pylons but at least some sort of mounting points ... and IMO there are only two, since the inner ones n the centerline you mention are different.
In the end you are again correct: "Too many unknowns to say!".
Remember, there’s still the theory that the double pointed holes are double pointed for pylons that can handle heavier loads, and the single point holes are pylon mounts specifically for aams. Granted, we don’t actually know if those holes are even for mounting pylons!
He specified it was the AL-31F J-20s that weighed less than the Su-27s so that implies the WS-10 J-20s weigh more. This suggests the J-20's empty weight is within ~200kg of the Su-27's, so around 17t.
The reason he's able to come by this information was because 611th used to regularly go to Guizhou for discussions with Liyang before 606th took over the WS-15 project from 624th. Liyang had worked closely with 624th on the WS-15 as the former had impressive turbine blade manufacturing capabilities but this is all moot now as 606th and Liming took over. 611th is known to be very considerate and thorough designers who communicate extensively with customers and contractors, and take their concerns into account, which contributed substantially to their winning the 5th-gen fighter contract. During the many conversations between visiting 611th personnel and Liyang, details such as the J-20's weight and anecdotes were exchanged. One such anecdote is that 611th spent a lot of effort refining the J-20's human-machine interfacing, presumably because the PLAAF would really appreciate it.
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