Bro, you got to stop post stuff like this, because everyone else will respond to it and derail this discussion.
J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI
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Bro, you got to stop post stuff like this, because everyone else will respond to it and derail this discussion.
Hyperwarp
Captain
Dammit girl! Turn around and show us that fine a$$.
After all, most important development here is the installation of WS-10X. CAC still doesn't want us to get look at it.
I mean I'm aware of the qualitative elements of those various aircraft design elements.
But all the basic elements like a high length to width ratio, rather small delta wings, coupled canards etc.. rather implies a long-range aircraft optimized for transsonic/supersonic performance at least when the J-20 gets modern engines in the future, at the cost of subsonic maneuverability and high alpha performance. One only need to check out the European half sisters Eurofighter and Rafale which coupled and decoupled canards have such a massive impact on the performance characteristics - Eurofighter uses canards as pitch control to increase longitudinal unstability, Rafale uses canards to generate lift especially within the subsonic regime.
And then there is the MiG 1.44 with pretty much all the same design elements (the J-20 doesn't deploy the variable engine intake ramp) where the canard are also not more than control devices without additional effects on lift generation - so the MiG 1.44 needs the strakes as vortex generators. And I think it's kind of safe to assume the same applies to the J-20.
My point here isn't that the J-20 is a copy or whatever of the 1.44 - that's a dead cow anyway but people are applying flying characteristics to the J-20 which are kind of against what the design elements would imply or why one would deploy them in the first place.
Song’s paper noted that with optimized vortex coupling from the lerxes, canard downwash, and body lift, they were able to increase the lift ratio of the design to a point where they didn’t have to sacrifice subsonic manueverability, and in fact with this effect they found that they could increase lift further by decreasing wingspan a bit. They also aggressively relaxed the longitudinal stability up to 10% from the usual 3-4%, using the pitch control capability of the canards to compensate. These specific design choices, to my knowledge, are not found with the mig 1.44, or with any other fighter. A lot more is going on here that meets the eye.
Here just read the paper for yourself.
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With the extreme short lever arms of the canards on the J-20. It would be questionable if the canards on the J-20 can create any meaningful amount of lift at all. So the LERX would be indeed another design element to compensate for the subsonic weakness of the basic aircraft design.
...the J-20’s canards actually have a pretty long lever arm. Compare the distance between the canards and the CG of the plane. It’s much longer than pretty much every other canard delta save the Eurofighter.
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Guys. Please leave Trump/Hilary/Xi or whatever politician out of this discussion. This thread is for J-20 and J-20 related discussions only!!!
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
Henri K take on the recent rumor of J 20 "fight" with J10C. It is rehash of the rumor that we seen before
Rumors about the first "fights" of the J-20
While the Chinese Air Force has officially announced , many are wondering whether other Chinese Air Force aircraft have already opportunity to "test what the J-20 has in the belly".
And if, according to the public interviews and , the answer seems to be quite clear that the last jewel of the Chinese army did indeed "meet" the other front-line fighters during the various air exercises in 2017 - if not sooner already - it is however not surprising that no results have been communicated publicly given the still sensitive and confidential nature of this Chinese plane.
But these are not rumors that have been missing for a year in terms of the results of these meetings, only the exercise of sorting is perilous to know which of these rumors are reliable, and which are just pure fantasies of some amateurs .
After having crossed several versions and filtered only on sources that seem to have demonstrated their credibility for a few years, we can still draw the outline of the scenarios that would have been played and have the results obtained by the J-20 during these simulations of air combat, although, for the moment, all this must still be taken with the pich of salt pending institutional elements to confirm or deny.
Two J-20 of the Chinese Air Force stolen in formation
It is then thought that the J-20 would have at least participated in two types of combat scenarios. The first is to assess the ability of the aircraft to conduct aerial combat as a direct responder, in the face of singular adversaries or reinforced by multiplying means in the air and on the ground. intercept "or" sweep "to eliminate any kind of threat from the sky to pave the way for the squadrons that follow.
For that, several cases would have been unfolded, in which the J-20 always intervened in pairs. For example, there is the case of two J-20s in BVR against a number of J-10B and J-10C which are supported by an AWACS KJ-500, in which one of the two J-20s would have managed to descend AWACS by surprise thanks to its stealth and range of its new Air-Air missile, while the other was busy entertaining and chasing the escort apparatus. A J-20 was reportedly shot down in front of the J-10C with active-scan radar, which was able to locate and lock the stealth fighter a short distance within 18 km, while all J-10Bs and half of the J-10C would have been down at the end.
Other cases have of course been mentioned, such as the WVR fight between two J-20s and several J-10B / J-10C in numerical superiority, but caution calls not to consider these cases, at least for the moment.
In the second type of scenario, the J-20s as well as the J-16 fighter bombers would have been used as reinforcements to come to support the OPFOR planes, which go to the assault against a site guarded by "the red army ".
The latter would consist of a number of J-10 interceptors (unknown version), AWACS and electronic warfare aircraft, as well as ground-based radar units and S-300 type air defense systems. (PMU1 or PMU2).
Here, the J-20 would have rather played the role of remote sensors, in advanced position, to guide the Air-Air missiles launched by the third planes (J-16?) On the "red" interceptors and the other multipliers in flight. The scenario would be ended by a heavy loss of ground units and Red Army units, and especially the reaching of sensitive targets by the OPFOR aircraft, a scenario that would suggest that of a possible conflict between Mainland China and Taiwan, where the latter will be endorsed by the US military with the F-22 and F-35 for example.
It is therefore understandable that an entire Chinese air defense base and the air force protection would have been "wiped out" against Taiwan and US squadrons in this scenario, which would explain why the first operational J-20s were deployed first in Eastern China, while it is Su-35 who leave to base themselves in the south.
J-16 and J-20, the new "winning couple" of the Chinese Air Force?
Two J-20s photographed by a J-16 pilot (Image: CCTV)
If in these rumors the versions are more or less different, all converge all the same to a point to say that the introduction of J-20 within the Chinese air forces generates a "shock" and especially a "disillusion", which has allowed the commanders of the air and anti-aircraft ground units to become aware of the "harsh reality" of the last generation of fighter jets (4th in China, 5th in the US or Russia) and furtive, and understand that the tactics developed in recent years to counter such devices are for the most "ineffective" and "inoperative".
Of course, we should expect other official sources to verify these claims, but one thing is certain, the Chinese Air Force is still in its infancy to refine the employment doctrines of a stealthy aircraft such as the J-20, and also to develop adequate means to counteract this kind of threat on a concrete basis.
To be continued.
Henri K.
Rumors about the first "fights" of the J-20
While the Chinese Air Force has officially announced , many are wondering whether other Chinese Air Force aircraft have already opportunity to "test what the J-20 has in the belly".
And if, according to the public interviews and , the answer seems to be quite clear that the last jewel of the Chinese army did indeed "meet" the other front-line fighters during the various air exercises in 2017 - if not sooner already - it is however not surprising that no results have been communicated publicly given the still sensitive and confidential nature of this Chinese plane.
But these are not rumors that have been missing for a year in terms of the results of these meetings, only the exercise of sorting is perilous to know which of these rumors are reliable, and which are just pure fantasies of some amateurs .
After having crossed several versions and filtered only on sources that seem to have demonstrated their credibility for a few years, we can still draw the outline of the scenarios that would have been played and have the results obtained by the J-20 during these simulations of air combat, although, for the moment, all this must still be taken with the pich of salt pending institutional elements to confirm or deny.
Two J-20 of the Chinese Air Force stolen in formation
It is then thought that the J-20 would have at least participated in two types of combat scenarios. The first is to assess the ability of the aircraft to conduct aerial combat as a direct responder, in the face of singular adversaries or reinforced by multiplying means in the air and on the ground. intercept "or" sweep "to eliminate any kind of threat from the sky to pave the way for the squadrons that follow.
For that, several cases would have been unfolded, in which the J-20 always intervened in pairs. For example, there is the case of two J-20s in BVR against a number of J-10B and J-10C which are supported by an AWACS KJ-500, in which one of the two J-20s would have managed to descend AWACS by surprise thanks to its stealth and range of its new Air-Air missile, while the other was busy entertaining and chasing the escort apparatus. A J-20 was reportedly shot down in front of the J-10C with active-scan radar, which was able to locate and lock the stealth fighter a short distance within 18 km, while all J-10Bs and half of the J-10C would have been down at the end.
Other cases have of course been mentioned, such as the WVR fight between two J-20s and several J-10B / J-10C in numerical superiority, but caution calls not to consider these cases, at least for the moment.
In the second type of scenario, the J-20s as well as the J-16 fighter bombers would have been used as reinforcements to come to support the OPFOR planes, which go to the assault against a site guarded by "the red army ".
The latter would consist of a number of J-10 interceptors (unknown version), AWACS and electronic warfare aircraft, as well as ground-based radar units and S-300 type air defense systems. (PMU1 or PMU2).
Here, the J-20 would have rather played the role of remote sensors, in advanced position, to guide the Air-Air missiles launched by the third planes (J-16?) On the "red" interceptors and the other multipliers in flight. The scenario would be ended by a heavy loss of ground units and Red Army units, and especially the reaching of sensitive targets by the OPFOR aircraft, a scenario that would suggest that of a possible conflict between Mainland China and Taiwan, where the latter will be endorsed by the US military with the F-22 and F-35 for example.
It is therefore understandable that an entire Chinese air defense base and the air force protection would have been "wiped out" against Taiwan and US squadrons in this scenario, which would explain why the first operational J-20s were deployed first in Eastern China, while it is Su-35 who leave to base themselves in the south.
J-16 and J-20, the new "winning couple" of the Chinese Air Force?
Two J-20s photographed by a J-16 pilot (Image: CCTV)
If in these rumors the versions are more or less different, all converge all the same to a point to say that the introduction of J-20 within the Chinese air forces generates a "shock" and especially a "disillusion", which has allowed the commanders of the air and anti-aircraft ground units to become aware of the "harsh reality" of the last generation of fighter jets (4th in China, 5th in the US or Russia) and furtive, and understand that the tactics developed in recent years to counter such devices are for the most "ineffective" and "inoperative".
Of course, we should expect other official sources to verify these claims, but one thing is certain, the Chinese Air Force is still in its infancy to refine the employment doctrines of a stealthy aircraft such as the J-20, and also to develop adequate means to counteract this kind of threat on a concrete basis.
To be continued.
Henri K.
Quickie
Colonel
The length of the lever arm of the J-20 isn't that short and is about the same as that of the J-10 and Gripen. Also, a longer lever arm length isn't necessary indicative of improvement in lift generated. As an example, the Rafale has closed coupled canard (as opposed to the nose cone mounted canard of the Typhoon)to improve lift at higher AOA.
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
Well, you know there's pride everywhere. Since reports from pilots/secondary sources have been issued on the J-20 being sub 16 tons and super-cruising, people usually take that unless other data comes out to contradict it rather than make up data in their own minds. I've heard crazier claims due to pride, like F-35 being maneuverable, or F-22 being some "alien bird" when it's been defeated even by 4th gen fighters in international exercises. So there's 2 sides of every coin.
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