J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[Blackstone]

If You want to have a good laugh the just go over to the Pakistan-Defence-Forum. There's a recent hype going on - and bashing of Deino due to his stupidity since he's not willing to accept the Chinese technological break-thru - since some found a report which claims that there are four types of WS-15 already ready now.




The typical fan-boys are already wetting themselves:

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Anyway, I'm still interested in what type of "locally build Chinese engine" the J-20 uses by now if this CCTV report is correct.


Deino

Yeah, I've seen the exchanges; lots of fanbois there to be sure. I've been a lurker on the PDF for years, and I'd give those fine folks an A+ for Pakistani nationalism.

 

[Deino]

Is this new ?

 

[taxiya]

Maybe a hint that it was a lousily researched report with false claims ???

That's one of the possible explanations. But then there are many other CCTV programs (mostly talk shows with serving officers) telling conflicting stories (too good vs. too bad) that were published and never retracted. All are possible.

 

[superdog]

Pretty sure the report was talking about WS-15, which is certainly an engine that exist, is being built for testing, and is definitely intended for the J-20. The report didn't say WS-15 is the engine installed on all the currently flying J-20, it didn't say the engine is already in active service, there is no contradiction with what we observed. Not sure what the fuss is about.

Okay maybe some people used it to confirm their belief that J-20 used Chinese engines from the very beginning, but the report really didn't say that.

 

[FORBIN]

Is this new ?

View attachment 39108

Pretty that chick whith this elegant outfitt but give me your number

 

[Blitzo]

In general I completely agree with Your analysis: However that still not answers the red part in Your post:

But even if I agree with You, there are on the one side so many theories around - some more, some less likely - and second, there are by rationale not many options on the table. So what is the most likely one ??

The issue is simply from all reliable reports we know, the WS-15 has reached a certain milestone and is allegedly ready for a first test (IMO on the Il-76LL at best), however it is surely far-far away from being already integrated in these few LRIP aircraft and even less it is flying from day-one.

The issue raised up again with this latest CCTV-report that got some hype by the usual suspects in certain forums as being prove that the WS-15 is ready, that the WS-15 is available already in 4 versions and the most powerful one delivering 24t of thrust.

As far as I however understand this report:
- No single word mentions the specific engine type used on the J-20,
- no single word mentions WS-10B or even WS-15 ??
- All this report says quite mysteriously, the "J-20 uses a locally manufactured engine" and it merely mentioned Liming factory.

As such my question - and I think it is not unjustified - even if I fully understand that some don't like my questions since they are fully happy with the plain report or information that the "J-20 uses a locally manufactured engine" or maybe fear the facts. But as long as we don't know its true designation nor any specific data, I don't see this discussion in no way as a finally closed case. Hope You don't mind.

In essence, what are the facts we know ? (= not much) and what are the theories (= some more or less likely while others are pure wet-dreams) ?

Here the possibilities:

1. An AL-31FN or uprated AL-31FN-based design (IMO based on the M2 and IMO the mots likely option) maybe localyl manufactured at Shenyang/Liming ? (it would explain "locally manufactured")

2. A WS-10B or even a rumoured WS-10/AL-31FN-Frankenstein-hybrid (IMO technically unlikely)

3. already a WS-15-prototype or WS-10/WS-15-hybrid as an intermediate development delivering between 17t to (IMO the joke of the day) 24t !!


So what's Your take?
Deino

Okay so from what I understand, your questions are:

1: what is the engine that J-20 uses which the video refers to in terms of the J-20's engine being assembled at Liming
2: where in the video do they mention WS-15?

Correct?

Well, in Taxiya's post on the previous page, https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/j-20-5th-gen-fighter-thread-v.t7303/page-470#post-455804
To quote him directly:

At about 2:30, it says "J-20's engine component fabrication and assembly are all done in the Liming plant".
At about 24:52, its says "From 3rd generation Taihang to 5th generation Emei (W15), Chinese aviation engine industry has achieved historical leap".
There is no words about what specific engine is used by J-20.

I don't see what about that is confusing.

The video clearly mentions Emei, which is the name of WS-15. So it is the first official confirmation that WS-15 exists and is intended for J-20. It does not say that WS-15 is already installed on J-20.

The video also suggests that J-20's engine is fabricated and assembled at Liming. That can be interpreted various ways, either that all J-20's engines are completely fabricated and assembled at Liming, or maybe that some J-20's engines are completely fabricated and assembled at Liming, or maybe that all J-20's engines are partially fabricated and assembled at Liming etc or maybe only some engines are. Either way they claim that J-


So my question is what about those two points are hard to believe? There are basically two rather reasonable takeaways IMO:

1: WS-15/Emei development is continuing to progress and that this is first high profile state media confirmation of WS-15/Emei. The video doesn't say that J-20s are currently using WS-15s and I don't think anyone here is seriously claiming that. People on PDF might be saying silly things but that's PDF for you.
2: that J-20's current engines at least have some involvement of the Liming plant in fabrication and assembly. We don't know what exactly J-20's current engines are, but IMO that doesn't matter. It could be some kind of hybrid or some kind of WS-10 derivative or just some kind of locally manufactured Al-31 variant. Who knows.


In other words, the way I see it the video is not meant to "close" this issue but rather it helps to open it up again.
Most importantly, I don't see anything in the video that significantly challenges our existing knowledge of what J-20's engine situation is like.

 

[MastanKhan]

Okay so from what I understand, your questions are:

1: what is the engine that J-20 uses which the video refers to in terms of the J-20's engine being assembled at Liming
2: where in the video do they mention WS-15?

Correct?

Well, in Taxiya's post on the previous page, https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/j-20-5th-gen-fighter-thread-v.t7303/page-470#post-455804
To quote him directly:



I don't see what about that is confusing.

The video clearly mentions Emei, which is the name of WS-15. So it is the first official confirmation that WS-15 exists and is intended for J-20. It does not say that WS-15 is already installed on J-20.

The video also suggests that J-20's engine is fabricated and assembled at Liming. That can be interpreted various ways, either that all J-20's engines are completely fabricated and assembled at Liming, or maybe that some J-20's engines are completely fabricated and assembled at Liming, or maybe that all J-20's engines are partially fabricated and assembled at Liming etc or maybe only some engines are. Either way they claim that J-


So my question is what about those two points are hard to believe? There are basically two rather reasonable takeaways IMO:

1: WS-15/Emei development is continuing to progress and that this is first high profile state media confirmation of WS-15/Emei. The video doesn't say that J-20s are currently using WS-15s and I don't think anyone here is seriously claiming that. People on PDF might be saying silly things but that's PDF for you.
2: that J-20's current engines at least have some involvement of the Liming plant in fabrication and assembly. We don't know what exactly J-20's current engines are, but IMO that doesn't matter. It could be some kind of hybrid or some kind of WS-10 derivative or just some kind of locally manufactured Al-31 variant. Who knows.


In other words, the way I see it the video is not meant to "close" this issue but rather it helps to open it up again.
Most importantly, I don't see anything in the video that significantly challenges our existing knowledge of what J-20's engine situation is like.

Hi,

Here is how these defense forums work---.

If the engineer working on the WS-15 came on this board anonymous and made a claim on what the engine is capable of doing---most guys here will call him a liar and light his ar-se on fire---.

 

[Deino]

Okay so from what I understand, your questions are:

1: what is the engine that J-20 uses which the video refers to in terms of the J-20's engine being assembled at Liming
2: where in the video do they mention WS-15?

Correct?

No - and sorry if I was confusing - since the general Translation was already there as You also noted. My Point is what are the consequences, since given the Options 1 - 3 I listed the historicla Genesis must be quite different.

...
The video also suggests that J-20's engine is fabricated and assembled at Liming. That can be interpreted various ways, either that all J-20's engines are completely fabricated and assembled at Liming, or maybe that some J-20's engines are completely fabricated and assembled at Liming, or maybe that all J-20's engines are partially fabricated and assembled at Liming etc or maybe only some engines are. Either way they claim that J-

So my question is what about those two points are hard to believe? There are basically two rather reasonable takeaways IMO:

1: WS-15/Emei development is continuing to progress and that this is first high profile state media confirmation of WS-15/Emei. The video doesn't say that J-20s are currently using WS-15s and I don't think anyone here is seriously claiming that. People on PDF might be saying silly things but that's PDF for you.
2: that J-20's current engines at least have some involvement of the Liming plant in fabrication and assembly. We don't know what exactly J-20's current engines are, but IMO that doesn't matter. It could be some kind of hybrid or some kind of WS-10 derivative or just some kind of locally manufactured Al-31 variant. Who knows..

Agreed, but my point is:

1. if this engine is indeed based on the AL-31FN of some sort and/or manufactured/assembled at Liming it is something new. From what I knew the AL-31-facility - not exactly sure - was at Chengdu and not Shenyang. Anyway it would confirm that there was a cooperation between Salut and a Chinese Company to develop a dedicated Version for the J-20, establish a facility to manufactor at least parts in China and assemble it there.

2. if based on a WS-10, then why does the nozzle looks so much like an AL-31 ? why are the changes to a regular WS-10A or even the 14t B model ?

3. if indeed already a pre-model of the WS-15 ... then the question is IMO why were all reports concerning the WS-15's progress so much off and what are its specifications.

In other words, the way I see it the video is not meant to "close" this issue but rather it helps to open it up again.
Most importantly, I don't see anything in the video that significantly challenges our existing knowledge of what J-20's engine situation is like.

Also agreed ... but You probably know my impatience !

Deino

 

[Blitzo]

No - and sorry if I was confusing - since the general Translation was already there as You also noted. My Point is what are the consequences, since given the Options 1 - 3 I listed the historicla Genesis must be quite different.

Agreed, but my point is:

1. if this engine is indeed based on the AL-31FN of some sort and/or manufactured/assembled at Liming it is something new. From what I knew the AL-31-facility - not exactly sure - was at Chengdu and not Shenyang. Anyway it would confirm that there was a cooperation between Salut and a Chinese Company to develop a dedicated Version for the J-20, establish a facility to manufactor at least parts in China and assemble it there.

2. if based on a WS-10, then why does the nozzle looks so much like an AL-31 ? why are the changes to a regular WS-10A or even the 14t B model ?

3. if indeed already a pre-model of the WS-15 ... then the question is IMO why were all reports concerning the WS-15's progress so much off and what are its specifications.

1: who knows

2: who knows

3: who knows

The reason could be any of them, or none of them. But at the end of the day I do not see any compelling reason for why the video's claims could not be possible.

Also agreed ... but You probably know my impatience !

Deino

yes, but in this case my interest is much more limited -- i.e.: why does anyone think the video is somehow not accurate or believable.

Based on my assessment I think it's quite accurate and believable.

 

[Hyperwarp]

There were some rumors that LRIP J-20 was powered by WS-10IPE (WS-10G 145+ kN). Now if the video acknowledges that engine parts are produced at Liming that means "Shenyang Liming Aircraft Engine Company", correct? If it is a Shenyang related company then I doubt very much that Salut would have transferred any technology. If it were Xi'an Aero-Engine Corporation then I wouldn't be surprised if MMPP Salut were allowed to transfer some technologies for local production specialized for J-20 until WS-15 is ready.

People with experience can ID engines acoustically especially people doing maintenance. You should ask someone who has heard the sounds of both WS-10 and AL-31 up-close. Is there a big deference in acoustics between the AL-31 to WS-10 compared to AL-31 to F110? During Zhuhai 2016 what was the acoustic signature of the J-20 engines? Was it different from an AL-31?