J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[kwaigonegin]

J-20 is every bit about air superiority as F-22 is. If J-20 failed to be an air superiority fighter aircraft, it would fail its primary design goal. It's hard to imagine that China's primary future fighter aircraft was not designed to be involved in knife fight. In fact, It is specifically designed to be "competitive" against F-22. (Let's leave out how competitive it is or will be against F-22; that's different matter).

Now, due to its size, J-20 has longer range and large payload. This is a must for China's fifth-generation fighter aircraft operating in the vast Asia and West Pacific region. The recently disclosed high-level study document for China's fourth-generation (5th in today's terminology) dated back to 2003 stated that the new aircraft's combat range must be able to reach the capitals of most neighboring countries (~1,500 km). See the map below from the document. F-22, OTOH, was conceived during the Cold War, primarily for the European theater where NATO countries control a lot of airports and range was not hugely important.

So J-20 is also a multi-role fighter aircraft. It can fulfill both air superiority and strike missions.

View attachment 34623

Not in my books. knife fight to me is WVR with guns blazing and SRAAMs. If the F22 or even the J20 ever gets in that sort of situation it loses much of it advantage as a 5th gen fighter.

Why bother investing billions$ in J20 if J10 can fulfill that role just as well?
Besides if J20 was primarily anticipated to be in close range knife fights most of the time then it would be a big error for the designers to NOT put mirrors on her which started this entire conversation in the first place!

 

[manqiangrexue]

Not in my books. knife fight to me is WVR with guns blazing and SRAAMs. If the F22 or even the J20 ever gets in that sort of situation it loses much of it advantage as a 5th gen fighter.

Why bother investing billions$ in J20 if J10 can fulfill that role just as well?
Besides if J20 was primarily anticipated to be in close range knife fights most of the time then it would be a big error for the designers to NOT put mirrors on her which started this entire conversation in the first place!

Well, the question is knife fight against whom? Against 4th gens, then yes, that would be a very bad sign for a 5th gen fighter and other 4th gens should have been used for that, but what about against an enemy 5th gen? They can't be detected until they are very close and if you use a 4th gen, it might already be destroyed in BVR before it's able to get close enough for the knife fight. But if you were in a 5th gen against a 5th gen, there is the distinct possibility that neither of you can detect or get a weapons quality lock on each other until up close. Then, it's a 5th gen knife fight you'd be wise to prepare for.

 

[A.Man]

Deino, the following street talks, how far can you go?

近期。
一边倒。。。。。
某机型兰芳，三代加大盘烘房
中距敲掉大盘鸡，三代甚至被近程弹敲掉都没发现谁打的。。。。
呵呵，想当年说什么八爷挑娘娘。。。。。。
如今，厉害了word丝带姬！！！！！

 

[vesicles]

Deino, the following street talks, how far can you go?

近期。
一边倒。。。。。
某机型兰芳，三代加大盘烘房
中距敲掉大盘鸡，三代甚至被近程弹敲掉都没发现谁打的。。。。
呵呵，想当年说什么八爷挑娘娘。。。。。。
如今，厉害了word丝带姬！！！！！

What the heck is this??? No clue what it's saying although I know almost every word...

 

[latenlazy]

Not in my books. knife fight to me is WVR with guns blazing and SRAAMs. If the F22 or even the J20 ever gets in that sort of situation it loses much of it advantage as a 5th gen fighter.

Why bother investing billions$ in J20 if J10 can fulfill that role just as well?
Besides if J20 was primarily anticipated to be in close range knife fights most of the time then it would be a big error for the designers to NOT put mirrors on her which started this entire conversation in the first place!

Because a J-10 never reaches WVR of a stealth fighter before it gets shot down?

If the J-20 wasn't meant to fight at least decently well WVR, then it's side bays would be a peculiar addition, given that they can only house SRAAMs.

 

[kwaigonegin]

Because a J-10 never reaches WVR of a stealth fighter before it gets shot down?

If the J-20 wasn't meant to fight at least decently well WVR, then it's side bays would be a peculiar addition, given that they can only house SRAAMs.

An apache can and do carry stingers, aim9s etc but that doesn't mean it is it's primary mission.

The J20 while argubly not as extreme an example holds similar contingencies. It is not a matter of how well it can fight in gun range. That was never my argument. It's just that that is not J20's raison d'être.

 

[tphuang]

What the heck is this??? No clue what it's saying although I know almost every word...

it's basically saying that J-20 kicked J-10s butt despite having AWAC support.

Not sure if this is true, but they have been facing off in Chengdu according to pupu.

 

[SteelBird]

What the heck is this??? No clue what it's saying although I know almost every word...

Vesicles, I don't remember if you live in China or where but you need to know that the language they are using is internet language. I think Chinese netizens use this language to avoid blocking, checking from the Great fireWall.

 

[perfume]

What the heck is this??? No clue what it's saying although I know almost every word...

近期。
一边倒。。。。。
某机型兰芳，三代加大盘烘房
中距敲掉大盘鸡，三代甚至被近程弹敲掉都没发现谁打的。。。。
呵呵，想当年说什么八爷挑娘娘。。。。。。
如今，厉害了word丝带姬！！！！！

Read it out loud again and it should make more sense.

One sided showings in recent exercises.
Blue side with (chinese) 3rd gen + big dish (awacs) engages 4th gen (j20 in this case).
Big dish killed off from BVR, 3rd gens don't know what hit them even when hit by SRAAMs.
It's funny now reminiscing the old days when we dreamed of engaging f22s with j8s - now we know the true power of 4th gen!!!
__________________

I remember reading similar reports when F15s initially engaged F22s, how times have changed and China is now also fortunate enough to experience it first hand

 

[Blitzo]

An apache can and do carry stingers, aim9s etc but that doesn't mean it is it's primary mission.

The J20 while argubly not as extreme an example holds similar contingencies. It is not a matter of how well it can fight in gun range. That was never my argument. It's just that that is not J20's raison d'être.

Your position seems to have been that mirrors means a plane is intended for "knife fights" and that a plane without mirrors like J-20 is not intended for it.

Do you agree then, that the lack of mirrors on F-22 means that is also similarly not intended for "knife fights"?