J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

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TerraN_EmpirE

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I may have called it an IRST but the gist is the same. It's the main electo optical array. The piece in question that may or may not be there is Distributed aperture this is a series of smaller electro optical sensors that give 360 degree coverage around both the vertical and horizontal axis of the F35 This is the Eyes in the back of the LightningII's head.
 

Blitzo

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Indeed, It's likely very likely that the Current machines are not even fully wired up with the full Avionics.

I think that is difficult to make a confident claim either for or against such a position due to lack of evidence.

However based on the development timescales of past aircraft, I personally think it would be reasonable to estimate that most of the 201X prototypes are fitted with representative hardware in terms of mission avionics, but probably are only being incrementally updated with functioning software to gradually test, verify, and further test and debug avionics functions step by step.
 

Brumby

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DAS is comprised of six staring focal point arrays. These are infrared cameras flush-mounted on the skin of the airplane, which detect the entire sphere around the airplane. The entire sphere is about 41,000 square degrees whereas the radar sees about 10,000 square degrees. When there is an intersection of the two sensors i.e. when they’re both looking through the same angular volume of space, fusion will work them synergistically, and they can queue each other through the fusion engine. As soon as one sensor detects something, fusion then queues every other sensor to look along that line of sight and try to find information about the track.

The DAS performs a number of functions. It does short range situation awareness infrared search and track (IRST). For the pilot, the days of someone sneaking up on him are almost gone. In clear air, it can detect and track other airplanes by their thermal signature. It also does missile launch detection, which is its primary function. It’s tuned to a spectrum such that it can see rocket motors. When a threat is detected, fusion will place a symbol on the helmet visor around the missile and the launch point. The other function DAS performs is called GTL ground target launch. This is the ability of fusion to extrapolate the DAS missile track back to the ground. Fusion places a symbol on the head down display at the point of origin.

Likewise when fusion recognizes a DAS track is in the same angular space as the radar it will indicate to the APG-81 to go look along this line of sight and get range on the track that DAS found. Or if the radar has a track and it gimbals, or in other words, the track goes beyond the radar’s field of regard, fusion will tell DAS to keep updating this and hold onto the track for the pilot until it comes back into the field of regard of the radar or comes back into the field of regard of some other sensor on the airplane. These things are laborious for the pilot to control manually, but are easy for a computer to control algorithmically. There is a reason for the 8.5 million lines of code and why the F-35 program is taking so long.It is automating the Orient and Observe part of the OODA loop and compressing the pilot's decision cycle. This is besides the EOTS, and Barrcuda EW that get thrown into the pot. The plane's EW suite has multiple functions and performs in an integrated manner with fusion. Some of these functions include radar warning receiver (RWR), electronic support measures (ESM), and electronic countermeasure (ECM). In comparison, these functions are federated on most 4th generation fighters.

As the airplane flies through battlespace, the EWS is tasked by fusion to build a picture of the electronic order of battle. It identifies emitters, locates them, classifies them and then reports to the pilot what it detects in battlespace. The fused data are matched against the threat library to build a profile of the threats, priority of threats and navigation vector to optimally position the plane against these threats.

All these capabilities combined is defined as level 4 sensor fusion according to the JDL model. There are some 4+ gen platform that claims to have sensor fusion but is effectively a level 0 type sensor fusion.

In comparing 5th gen sensor fusion across platforms, there are several factors that come into the picture in determining sensor fusion capabilities besides the software and architectural design.

The F-35 sensor fusion architecture is that all the data from all the sensors are handled in one fusion engine whereas in 4th gen systems the individual sensor handle their own data and then transfer the data they consider important the sensor fusion engine. The sensor fusion in 4th gen systems is unaware how the sensors decide what signals are important. The sensor fusion engine by centralising data is able to build a more comprehensive composite picture but this requires a capable data bus. Modern AESA and optical staring arrays generate significant amount of data that needs to be moved. This means the databus architecture, bandwidth and latencies are important. Imagine trying to do video conferencing using dial up moderm. Rafael which claims to have sensor fusion have 20 Mbps max speed databuses (STANAG 3910 type). Most F-22 and F-35 have 20 times higher speed databuses (IEEE 1394b) with growth potential. Such data transfer rate is huge difference for sensor fusion and presenting information to a pilot.

To my knowledge, the Chinese are still using ARINC 429 databus architecture for the J10A/B and the Russians are using 1553B in the PAKFA. I don't know what the J-20 is using but that would be a key determinant on its sensor fusion capability if it does have one.
 

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Blitzo

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Where is that chart from?

I'm aware that J-10A supposedly uses (or perhaps initially used) ARINC429 data bus, but we don't even have any sort of rumours for what J-10B uses.
[edit: there are also some fairly strong rumours that both J-10B and J-20 uses new optic fibre HSDBs -- but this information obviously is no more reliable than the suggestion that J-10A supposedly used ARIN429]

I'm also not sure where 1553B for PAK FA comes from? o_O
 
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Brumby

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However based on the development timescales of past aircraft, I personally think it would be reasonable to estimate that most of the 201X prototypes are fitted with representative hardware in terms of mission avionics, but probably are only being incrementally updated with functioning software to gradually test, verify, and further test and debug avionics functions step by step.
Unless you are suggesting that you are aware of some other secretive 5th gen project that China has, there is frankly no comparable development timescale to draw upon. 5th gen capabilities are state of the art.

Where is that chart from?

I'm aware that J-10A supposedly uses (or perhaps initially used) ARINC429 data bus, but we don't even have any sort of rumours for what J-10B uses.
[edit: there are also some fairly strong rumours that both J-10B and J-20 uses new optic fibre HSDBs -- but this information obviously is no more reliable than the suggestion that J-10A supposedly used ARIN429]

I'm also not sure where 1553B for PAK FA comes from? o_O
My sources are unsubstantiated because as you know basically nothing is ever official. If you believe your information is more accurate, feel free to correct.
 

Blitzo

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Unless you are suggesting that you are aware of some other secretive 5th gen project that China has, there is frankly no comparable development timescale to draw upon. 5th gen capabilities are state of the art.

I didn't say anything about capabilities, only representative hardware.

I was thinking of the way in which CAC and SAC have developed fighter programmes in the past (and how also other nations have done so, whether they're 4th gen or 5th gen). I'm sure you are aware of how the first few prototypes are generally not equipped with avionics and are meant for more preliminary flight testing only, and subsequent prototypes tend to be equipped with representative subsystems including various mission avionics for successively more complex tests.

I would certainly be surprised if they were producing LRIP planes without the representative hardware onboard either fitted, or soon to be fitted on the LRIP airframes.

However, note that I am making no claim about what the actual rung of development or capability they're at with their various mission avionics and flight and weapons testing -- after all, merely having hardware onboard doesn't mean they have the software to reliably run everything. And of course it doesn't mean that the hardware subsystems they have on board may not undergo redesigns if problems with the subsystems pop up during more advanced testing.


My sources are unsubstantiated because as you know basically nothing is ever official. If you believe your information is more accurate, feel free to correct.

I don't necessarily feel like my information is more reliable, but I do also think that your claims about PAK FA and J-10B (and J-10A potentially) are poorly substantiated -- i.e.: it's probably most accurate to say we don't have any sort of reliable information about the actual data rate of the data bus which those various aircraft use... I imagine such numbers would be fairly well guarded secrets until development is finished.
 

Blitzo

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via huitong...

"More LRIP
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s are being built in 2016, at least 14 by July 2016"

I'm not sure if it's a typo and he meant to write 4, or if maybe wall climbers really have spotted that many... I would be very surprised and impressed if 14 LRIP J-20s are already produced.
 
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