J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

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nemo

Junior Member
Wow, before China even operationally field its first stealth fighter and it is already game over!

No. This problem is already known -- that's why Chinese destroyers such as 052C and 052D have UHF radars just for this purpose.

Stealth aircraft actually optimizes against fire control frequencies which are much shorter in wave length -- this make long and middle range missiles less effective. And missiles cannot handle long wavelength due to the limited aperture size even if you ignore the precision issue (long waves does have have the resolution).
 

by78

General
Wow, before China even operationally field its first stealth fighter and it is already game over!

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ULTRA-UHF-early-warning-radar-310x147.jpg


PARIS AIR SHOW 2015: Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) unveiled a unique, highly advanced family of modular Ultra High Frequency (UHF) Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radars.

The new ULTRA family of AESA UHF radars, developed by IAI’s ELTA Systems Group and subsidiary, represents a formidable capability of Early Warning and long range search and tracking of low observable Air Breathing Targets (ABTs), and ballistic missiles. The radars offer an advantage of low RCS targets detection at long ranges, operation under all weather conditions, and in the presence of dense electromagnetic environments.

The ULTRA radars, already operationally proven, use a modular, common UHF-band cluster architecture capable of wide angle electronic scan in both elevation and azimuth. The basic cluster can be modularly scaled to 6 and up to a 22 cluster configuration which offers extended detection ranges and tracking accuracies. Other cluster configurations are possible to meet specific customer’s requirements.

The ULTRA-C1 (single cluster configuration) is a lightweight mobile system designed to provide an autonomous search and detection capability up to 500km for a typical fighter aircraft. The ULTRA-C6 (six clusters configuration) is designed for an Early Warning and long range of satellites, ballistic missiles and airborne targets at long ranges, while the ULTRA C-22 (22 clusters configuration) is a strategic system for ballistic missiles and space objects detection and tracking at very long ranges.

The ULTRA radars can be used as autonomous search radar, supporting all defence layers: Air Defence Surveillance for medium range, Early Warning system for long ranges, and a strategic system for very long ranges.

“Ballistic missiles present a significant global threat to nations, expeditionary forces and global peace-keeping missions”, explained Mr. Nissim Hadas, IAI Executive VP & ELTA President, “We note increasing requirements worldwide for Early Warning radars, in order to extend the currently available Air Situation Picture and allow commanders and decision makers the valuable extra time for making informed and educated decisions concerning necessary defensive measures.”


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It is said that UHF is particularly effective at detecting stealth aircrafts, and a single cluster has already over 500 km of detection range - adding more cluster seems to increase the range significantly (to strategic level - probably at thousands of km).

This presents a problem for China, that J-20 hasn't even been fielded and its career might already be over. As more countries starting acquirig long range UHF type radar clusters the advantage of stealth will be gone. What's left is simply high performance, super maneuverable fighter akin to the last (4.5+ generation).

And since J-20 is quite large and quite long (largest of the known stealth aircraft pack) it begs the question just how maneuverable it is.

A bit late to the game, isn't it? The Russians pioneered this. The Chinese have operational equivalents already.

What's next? IAI unveils a new family of four-wheeled vehicle powered by internal combustion engine running on gasoline, designed to render obsolete the horse-drawn carriage?
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
A bit late to the game, isn't it? The Russians pioneered this. The Chinese have operational equivalents already.
So?

Does this mean nothing better, or more advanced, or eviolving can be developed.

Note the wording:

"a unique, highly advanced family of modular Ultra High Frequency (UHF) Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radars."

What's next? IAI unveils a new family of four-wheeled vehicle powered by internal combustion engine running on gasoline, designed to render obsolete the horse-drawn carriage?
Come on, by78, such comments are not becoming of you. No need to be petty or dismissive.

Other nation's scientists can, and in fact many times have, improved on designs that were initially started in other places. This happens on both sides of all political, ideological, and cultural divides.

Dismissing it, and thus ignoring it or underestimating it can be very detrimental.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Wow, before China even operationally field its first stealth fighter and it is already game over!

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ULTRA-UHF-early-warning-radar-310x147.jpg


PARIS AIR SHOW 2015: Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) unveiled a unique, highly advanced family of modular Ultra High Frequency (UHF) Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radars.

The new ULTRA family of AESA UHF radars, developed by IAI’s ELTA Systems Group and subsidiary, represents a formidable capability of Early Warning and long range search and tracking of low observable Air Breathing Targets (ABTs), and ballistic missiles. The radars offer an advantage of low RCS targets detection at long ranges, operation under all weather conditions, and in the presence of dense electromagnetic environments.

The ULTRA radars, already operationally proven, use a modular, common UHF-band cluster architecture capable of wide angle electronic scan in both elevation and azimuth. The basic cluster can be modularly scaled to 6 and up to a 22 cluster configuration which offers extended detection ranges and tracking accuracies. Other cluster configurations are possible to meet specific customer’s requirements.

The ULTRA-C1 (single cluster configuration) is a lightweight mobile system designed to provide an autonomous search and detection capability up to 500km for a typical fighter aircraft. The ULTRA-C6 (six clusters configuration) is designed for an Early Warning and long range of satellites, ballistic missiles and airborne targets at long ranges, while the ULTRA C-22 (22 clusters configuration) is a strategic system for ballistic missiles and space objects detection and tracking at very long ranges.

The ULTRA radars can be used as autonomous search radar, supporting all defence layers: Air Defence Surveillance for medium range, Early Warning system for long ranges, and a strategic system for very long ranges.

“Ballistic missiles present a significant global threat to nations, expeditionary forces and global peace-keeping missions”, explained Mr. Nissim Hadas, IAI Executive VP & ELTA President, “We note increasing requirements worldwide for Early Warning radars, in order to extend the currently available Air Situation Picture and allow commanders and decision makers the valuable extra time for making informed and educated decisions concerning necessary defensive measures.”


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It is said that UHF is particularly effective at detecting stealth aircrafts, and a single cluster has already over 500 km of detection range - adding more cluster seems to increase the range significantly (to strategic level - probably at thousands of km).

This presents a problem for China, that J-20 hasn't even been fielded and its career might already be over. As more countries starting acquirig long range UHF type radar clusters the advantage of stealth will be gone. What's left is simply high performance, super maneuverable fighter akin to the last (4.5+ generation).

And since J-20 is quite large and quite long (largest of the known stealth aircraft pack) it begs the question just how maneuverable it is.

I like how defence media are suddenly taking IAI's product claim as legitimate even though a year ago a similar product from ECRIEE last year was scorned... despite being AESA, UHF as well lol.

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In any case ULTRA is no more a silver bullet to stealth than JY-26 is -- both will provide early warning capability and better detection and tracking, but to actually kill a stealth fighter you need an X band radar, which is the frequency which stealthy targets are meant to defeat.

Stealth will remain operationally useful for many years to come, but there are also emerging ways to mitigate some of its previous advantages.

---

also, note the ultra variant in the image is the ultra-c22, the one designed for space and ballistic missile targets
The ultra-c1 is the smallest version which is mobile, and more for stealthy air breathing and fighter sized targets, below:

wzMRq0X.jpg


And JY-26:
4xAf9G5.jpg
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
his presents a problem for China, that J-20 hasn't even been fielded and its career might already be over. As more countries starting acquirig long range UHF type radar clusters the advantage of stealth will be gone. What's left is simply high performance, super maneuverable fighter akin to the last (4.5+ generation).

And since J-20 is quite large and quite long (largest of the known stealth aircraft pack) it begs the question just how maneuverable it is.

It will be a factor no doubt, but, and this is a big but, you have to buy and field these things???? expensive, you bet.
Lets NOT get into the how long is the J-20? petty measuring stick argument, the J-20 is very unstable, and without a great FCS, and those distant coupled canard stabilizing her, lets just say she is loosey goosey??? she is very maneuverable, and still seems to fly very well.
As our own F-35 proves, we have all taken a step back from "super-maneuverability, except for the Russian T-50.
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I'd say hes banking and the picture is rotated, we've seen that before, not that they couldn't pull to the vertical, but we really haven't seen any real maneuvering other than a few aileron rolls and some steep turns?
 
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