J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[Air Force Brat]

Yeah that's what the naysayers and doubters always say in just about everything Chinese until China showed how their technology HAD reach par or beyond Western tech.

and when did "that" happen????

J-20 is also stealthy and as far as radar and sensors are concern no body knows for sure, but I would bet it can hold its own pretty good. The canards makes it more maneuverable than the F-35

You are making assumptions again, the J-20 is severely thrust limited at this time, that does indeed affect the sustained turn rate in ways you obviously cannot imagine???

as I have stated before, simple physics give an advantage to the F-35, as you have to move less mass, less distance in those very rapid "pitch transitions", Honda Motor Co. defined it as "mass centralization" on their very fine 1000 CBR sport bike?? a steel ball will "swap ends" much quicker than a steel bar, so the closer the weight is to the center of gravity, the more rapidly that object will change direction as compared to the object with a longer moment arm, all other things being equal.

 

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I would also note that Military Professionals, mostly pilots/engineers are well able to extrapolate performance data base on known thrust and weight ranges, and "eyeball" the winner. Most internet phan bois are NOT objective, and live in the world of Smoke and Mirrors, I would take their conclusions with a "grain of salt".

For those of you who use the "teaspoon or tablespoon of salt concept", the grain of salt constitutes the minimal value of a concept, while a teaspoon or tablespoon would imply more value, rather than less.
Yes English is a difficult language, but not nearly as difficult as Chinese? LOL

And yet none of those so called "military professional pilots and engineers" had never engage in or been inside the J-20 to make a fan boy assessment and guestimates.

 

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You are making assumptions again, the J-20 is severely thrust limited at this time, that does indeed affect the sustained turn rate in ways you obviously cannot imagine???

as I have stated before, simple physics give an advantage to the F-35, as you have to move less mass, less distance in those very rapid "pitch transitions", Honda Motor Co. defined it as "mass centralization" on their very fine 1000 CBR sport bike?? a steel ball will "swap ends" much quicker than a steel bar, so the closer the weight is to the center of gravity, the more rapidly that object will change direction as compared to the object with a longer moment arm, all other things being equal.

So you automatically think the J-20 therefore can't dog fight with the F-35? Weren't there an article in English that says something about the F-35 lacked the ability to dog fight some months ago? And that's with just 4th gen fighter plane, now imagine how it would do with the 5th gen fighters such as J-20 and even the T-50.

 

[Air Force Brat]

So you automatically think the J-20 therefore can't dog fight with the F-35? Weren't there an article in English that says something about the F-35 lacked the ability to dog fight some months ago? And that's with just 4th gen fighter plane, now imagine how it would do with the 5th gen fighters such as J-20 and even the T-50.

I did NOT say the J-20 can't hang with the F-35, in fact I stated the F-35 and the J-20 are likely very close in "agility", neither is in the class of the T-50, the F-22, and prolly not the Typhoon?? which are outstanding, the J-20 and the F-35 being in the very good category.

the F-35 is a very heavy densely equipped fighter, like the J-20, lots of weight and internal equipement, but with-out the extremely high TW of the Raptor. The J-20 has "distant coupled canards", in other words the canards are designed to be able to exert MORE force, by virtue of their longer moment arm, the Eurofighters have close coupled canards, and more "mass centralized", which means they require less force due to the "closer coupling" with the main wing, but have to move less mass, and are able to do it marginally "quicker".

if you believe your own posts and those of other senior posters, you would realize that the days of the dogfight have been mostly replaced with BVR engagements??? thus the reason that designers of the F-35 and J-20 are not as concerned about "snap your head off" agility? LOL

if you read my posts, you know I am a fan of the J-20 as well as the F-35, and know they will both be very effective fighter aircraft!

 

[Air Force Brat]

And yet none of those so called "military professional pilots and engineers" had never engage in or been inside the J-20 to make a fan boy assessment and guestimates.

You make lots of assessments of the cute little women you like??? but you haven't been "engaged" to all of them have you??? so YES, Pilots/Engineers who, are operating in their "field" know a great deal just by "Looking" as well as history, and the predecessors??? YES??, YESS!!!!!

NOW, where is 2102???? really, where are you hiding it?????

 

[FORBIN]

For those of you who use the "teaspoon or tablespoon of salt concept", the grain of salt constitutes the minimal value of a concept, while a teaspoon or tablespoon would imply more value, rather than less.
Yes English is a difficult language, but not nearly as difficult as Chinese? LOL

Good your funny but yes and for all Asian languages with translation

Seems, pilots also say Dogfight actualy or soon would disappear.

About J-20 Mr Air Force, Brat have always say good things for J-20 i confirm in more it is a Gentlemen but don' t forget Europeans countries, USSR/Russia, USA build from a century and China really new from only 20/30 years... a huge difference they do good possible... ? for some yes all no engines especialy, in more few few infos many mysteries, numbers of weapons, units, serial numbers deleted, faked pics ... then logic to be more circumspect for this country.

 

[Hyperwarp]

J-20 probably won't be the greatest dogfighter in the current config. It lacks WS-15 with TVC. The thrust gap is pretty severe.

P&W F135 - 190 kN
P&W F119 - 156 kN (officially),
Saturn 117 (142 kN /147 kN in emergency mode).

In contrast how much thrust do the current engines in the J-20 produce? The highest figure I have seen is around 138 kN for a Salut engine. The 140 kN WS-10 version was certified recently but even that is targeted at J-11B variants especially J-11D.

So I won't be at all surprised if the 1st batch of J-20 will be rather sluggish in a dogfight but it should give a decent BVR edge when looking at the regional rivals other than the US.

 

[Quickie]

Let me just quickly add: The J-20 is designed to be a very maneuverable fighter jet. The fact that it's canard based and it having a high alpha design with its highly slanted stabilizers (Ruddervators) placed so far aft all point to it being very maneuverable. All these have been discussed at length in the older pages of this thread ages ago.

 

[kwaigonegin]

Hard to see how anyone could arrive at an objective conclusion when they only have half a picture.

The T/W ratio and turn rates of the J20 are completely unknowns at this point in time.

Lack of TVC is also an invalid criticism, neither the Typhoon or Rafale uses it, so why does the J20, which uses the same delta-canard aerodynamic configuration, need TVC to achieve similar levels of agility?

The F22 need to use its TVC in a knife fight with Eurocanards because it uses a more traditional basic configuration, which is inherently less agile than a canard-delta.

You are also basing your entire premise on the assumption that the whole fight will happen like some quant knightly dual where both parties will arrive at an agreed area at the same time, doff their hats to each other before commencing.

But in reality, a good 5th gen fighter pilot will be exploiting the stealth of his machine to the max to get on his non-stealthy opponent's tail to finish the dogfight before his opponent even knew he was in one.

No I base my opinion on the stated scenario which was the argument in WVR.
As a matter a fact if u read my previous posting I was the one who stated that a j20 pilot engaging in gun range against say a typhoon etc meant something may have gone awry because the J20 would not be able to utilize the advantages it has at that point.

Within a couple of miles stealth is basically useless. The mk1 eyeball and maybe IRST will be the primary determinant aside from good energy management and turn radius.

 

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You make lots of assessments of the cute little women you like??? but you haven't been "engaged" to all of them have you??? so YES, Pilots/Engineers who, are operating in their "field" know a great deal just by "Looking" as well as history, and the predecessors??? YES??, YESS!!!!!

NOW, where is 2102???? really, where are you hiding it?????

Have you been "engaged" inside the F-22 or J-20 to make any assessable comparison or do you just take those "experts" word for it? Seems like they tell what you wanted to hear regardless of objective view points. Really? As if only Americans have great researchers and insight into aerodynamics engineering? Are you Trump boys that desperate to "Make America Great Again" that you can't see anyone else being better than you at anything? And please don't say because you believe in "God" and the Bible....blah.....blah...blah...therefore are better.