J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread IV (Closed to posting)

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Inst

Captain
If the Kopp simulations are correct, however, the J-20 has a negative zone of stealth on its full direct heading. Only once you get about 10 degrees off center do you get the high -30 to -35 dbsm stealth ratings.

We've discussed this before, but as we're laymen, it's hard to tell if this is the result of the canards adding dbsm (iirc, the canards should only add dbsm in the -30 dbsm range when properly treated) or if this is the result of bad modeling on the engine intakes.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
If you look at the PAK-FA on the Kopp simulations, it generally has a -20 to -30 dbsm range in its frontal zone. It's adequately stealthy for the job, which is to avoid getting killed in BVR by stealth aircraft and to kill other stealth aircraft through better maneuverability.

I recall reading up about the J-20 being considered as potentially iconic as the Mitsubishi Zero, but the fat irony is that while the Mitsubishi Zero was designed as a close-range maneuvering fighter, with poor acceleration, climb, and dive, the J-20 seems to be more designed as an accelerationist along the lines of American fighters of the WW2 due to its design for extremely low drag. When fitted with proper engines, the J-20 will probably have better acceleration than the F-22, as well as good supersonic range and high-speed maneuverability. The PAK-FA will have superior maneuverability, the F-22 superior stealth, and the poor F-35 will just be a bomb truck. :)

While I am certain the J-20 may well be as ICONIC as the Japanese Zero, the zero was highly maneuverable, accelerated very well and would easily best all the allied fighters in a climb, its primary opponents being the P-40 of the AVG or the FM-2 Wildcat of the Navy and Marines. If the P-40s had enough warning they take-off and climb until they were above the Zero-Zen. The attack was initiated from the High Key position and was a diving, slashing attack, the six .50s of the P-40 were devastating to the lightly armored zero, which also lacked self sealing fuel tanks, the attacker was NOT to try to turn with the Zero, as it was light and highly maneuverable at all altitudes. The P-40 and the FM-2 were heavy and could easily out-dive a Zero by virtue of their heavy armor, however if you bounced the Zeros at lower altitude, the advantage was theirs, and their cannons had great firepower, even against the heavily armored, Grumman Ironworks FM-2.

Your assessments of the J-20, F-22, PAK-FA, and F-35 are equally skewed by assumptions of others, and in the case of engines, high hopes for the future, that may or may not pan out. The PAK-FA and F-22 will have much quicker pitch transitions due to thrust vectoring engines, of considerably greater thrust, the main reason Dr. Song stated that he attempted to counter that with distant coupled canards with a longer moment arm, rather than the close coupled canards of most conventional aft mounted delta configurations.. The F-22 is currently the ONLY operational fifth gen, the F-35 has entered LRIP and some aircraft are now operationally coded, the J-20, Pak-FA, and J-31 are still in prototype development, making it very difficult to make any real comparison

I would remind all posters that the allied forces were only able to counter the Zero, by recognizing its not insignificant strengths, as well as their weaknesses and developing tactics that gave them an advantage, and avoiding situations that allowed the Zero to play to its strengths....
 

Inst

Captain
With regards to the Zero:

"I learned quickly that altitude was paramount. Whoever had altitude dictated the terms of the battle, and there was nothing a Zero pilot could do to change that — we had him. The F4U could outperform a Zero in every aspect except slow speed manoeuvrability and slow speed rate of climb. Therefore you avoided getting slow when combating a Zero. It took time but eventually we developed tactics and deployed them very effectively... There were times, however, that I tangled with a Zero at slow speed, one on one. In these instances I considered myself fortunate to survive a battle. Of my 21 victories, 17 were against Zeros, and I lost five aircraft in combat. I was shot down three times and I crashed one that ploughed into the line back at base and wiped out another F4U.[41]" -Marine pilot on F4U Corsair, from Wikipedia

My point is that the Zero was an adaptation to the poor state of Japanese engine technology at the time, like the J-20 was an adaptation to the inferiority of the Chinese engine industry. However, while the Zero was very good at what it did, with proper tactics most of its strengths could be negated and it would be ineffective. By designing for minimum weight to maximize TWR with weak engines, the Zero limited its max speed and high-speed performance due to the airframe first locking up, then disintegrating.

Compare that to the J-20, which, if it manages to meet expectations with regards to its engine technology, would likely be a Mach 2 supercruiser, even faster than the F-22, with a focus on reducing drag for high-speed operations, while likely sacrificing low-speed maneuverability due to a lack of wing loading, and a probable lack of TVC, as you've mentioned.

I'm just pointing out the irony that if the J-20 ends up becoming an iconic fighter of the 2020s, it'll do so by having the opposite design philosophy of the Zero; emphasizing speed over maneuverability. Whether it'll turn out just as badly as the Zero did, in that the opponents of the Zero were able to reliably exploit its poor high-speed performance so that with perfect tactics on both sides the Zero was toast, is to be determined, since the J-20 will have poor stealth in various regimes, as well as likely being behind when it comes to effectiveness of sensors.

===

And as to having unrealistic views, I'm just assuming that the various 5th generation projects meet their intended targets. It is possible, even likely, that something will eventually go wrong with the design program and that various 5th gen programs will become highly flawed, like the J-10 project taking 10 more years than planned and being forced to fly with Russian engines instead of the intended WS-10, or the F-35 program being behind schedule and overbudget, but just as it's uncertain as to whether various 5th gen projects will be successful, it's also uncertain as to whether they'll be unsuccessful. Between hitting their design targets and just flat out missing them, however, they're more likely to be closer to hitting their design targets.

Looking at the design specs, then, the F-22 emphasizes a mixture of stealth and maneuverability, with extreme all-aspect stealth due to the requirements of the ATF program and better maneuverability than most 4th and 4.5th gens due to its body-lift design and TVC. The F-35 emphasizes a combination of stealth and advanced sensors, being designed to be highly stealthy, although not as much as the F-22, but it's designed to avoid a WVR fight as it is only designed to be somewhat more maneuverable than 4th gen fighters, not 4.5th gen fighters. The PAK-FA / T-50 / Su-50 aims to be the most maneuverable 5th gen fighter, while also emphasizing moderate stealth to enable it to get into WVR range. The J-20 aims to maximize supercruise capabilities and range, while having stealth and sensors comparable to the F-35 as well as maneuverability comparable to 4.5th gen fighters.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
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Hi guys ... please stay on topic ... and even more please keep all the latest news and images, since I'm again off for one week with the kids from school.

So, see You later next Friday my friends ....

Deino
 

F-15

Banned Idiot
The patent of PAK-FA says that it's designed to achieve RCS of around 0.5 m^2. I'm not sure which angles it was referring to, but I would imagine it's around that ball park all the way around. And the return from aft section looks to be even more.
The radar cross section is not fixed, it depends in a few physical aspects, first the power density, which means how much electromagnetic energy is emitted by the radar measured in voltage.
The other is distance, since radiation dissipates and is absorbed by the environment, basic laws of quantum mechanics will explain it for you.

Shape also will be another factor, but shape is useless in the low energy spectrum, and stealth aircraft have no fixed RCS, their RCS is variable depending in the type of radar, frequency and medium.

More powerful radar=bigger RCS
 
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F-15

Banned Idiot
Wow, I had no idea this was the case. A commonly quoted frontal RCS for the F-22 is 0.0001 m^2, which means the "0.5 m^2" is referring to some angle other than frontal or the PAK-FA is not a truly stealth-optimized fighter. Perhaps the PAK-FA does not have an S-intake like everybody is saying and the turbine blades are viewable from the front. Or something else is going on.
No it is not, the Russian patent says F-22 has a bigger RCS than the PAKFA, but the Russians based that upon their newer radars, and the fact their jet uses newer types of composites, if you want to believe it or not is just a personal decision, but they say they achieved better RCS thanks to much better nanotechnology coatings and a large surface made of composites and they say F-22 has a larger RCS because they are using L frequency radars.

NIIP-AESA-L-Band-Brochure-2S.jpg
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
The radar cross section is not fixed, it depends in a few physical aspects, first the power density, which means how much electromagnetic energy is emitted by the radar measured in voltage.
The other is distance, since radiation dissipates and is absorbed by the environment, basic laws of quantum mechanics will explain it for you.

Shape also will be another factor, but shape is useless in the low energy spectrum, and stealth aircraft have no fixed RCS, their RCS is variable depending in the type of radar, frequency and medium.

More powerful radar=bigger RCS

That's a lot on innacuracies in your statement. RCS has nothing to do with antenna gain. What you are referring to is called the total reflected power of an object where distance AND radar emissions come into play.
Radars are also directional in nature because they emit in a small beam like pattern so RCS is not affected. RCS deals strictly with the reflection receive back from the emitters energy not the object's. RCS has two and two variables only.. The geometry of the object scanned and the materials used. Period.
 

F-15

Banned Idiot
That's a lot on innacuracies in your statement. RCS has nothing to do with antenna gain. What you are referring to is called the total reflected power of an object where distance AND radar emissions come into play.
Radars are also directional in nature because they emit in a small beam like pattern so RCS is not affected. RCS deals strictly with the reflection receive back from the emitters energy not the object's. RCS has two and two variables only.. The geometry of the object scanned and the materials used. Period.

At lower frequencies, the shaping we rely on to cut RCS in the microwave region becomes more and more indistinct as the wavelength starts to approach the dimensions of the target. (For reference, the length of an F/A-18C is about 17 meters.) It’s like the case of light and dust particles—the complexities of the particle’s shape make no difference because its size is close to a wavelength of light. Like
dust particles dancing in a shaft of sunlight, when viewed at low frequencies targets tend to scatter radar energy in all directions regardless of shape.
Low frequencies are a problem also for RAM and RAS. The effect of radar absorbers is affected by their thickness relative to the wavelength—one quarter of the wavelength is best. As the wavelength reaches a foot or more, radar absorbers become impractical for
most targets.
The net effect is that at very low frequencies, the RCS of normal stealthy targets tends to approach that of non-stealthy targets of similar physical size—close to the physical area of the target. This is called resonant scattering because the wave is in resonance
with the target, leading to scattering of radiation in a broad fan
 
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