J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread IV (Closed to posting)

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chuck731

Banned Idiot
Some one please explain to me why canards are so commonly stated to be less desirable from stealth perspective than conventional horizontal tails?

In either case one gets two airfoil shapes, one ahead of the other, that can change angles relative to each other.

BTW, F-22's horizontal tail can also deflect up and down a large number of degrees, way more than than would seem necessary for the plane to fly in pre-stall regime.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
looking at it strictly from geometry standpoint, canards might lead to a few more hotspots of rcs return compared to conventional layout, when looked at from the front. naturally, when in a chase, canard layout might offer less returns than conventional one, for the exact same reasons.

that's if canards/horizontal tail surfaces would be at the exactly the same level.

of course, having canards at the exactly same level as wings lowers their aerodynamic effectiveness. which is why j20 has them canted so their vortexes go over the wing.

so yes, j20 layout should lead to a few more rcs hotspots than j20 overall, both when looked from the front and the back. of course.

situation A) enemy radar is mostly in front of the j20/f22, both azimuth wise and elevation wise. leading surfaces of canards deflect to the side, no problem. leading surfaces of wings do the same. edges of canards, canard roots, slats on the wings and wing edges produce returns in all directions.

here j20 is potentially at a disadvantage because it has two canard edges, canard root edge, two edges from one of the slat/wing joints (other one is possibly covered by the canard) and the wing's edge. that's 6 sharp edges that might radiate in all directions. f22 in same situation would have two pairs of slat/wing edges plus a wing edge. its wings are obstructing line of sight to the tails so no edges are visible. that's 5 sharp edges per wing. (10 total for aicraft versus 12 for j20). BUT, since j20 canards are canted, it's possible the inner slat/wing joint isnt actually covered/obstructed by them. if so, that'd add 2 more edges per wing for a total of 10 versus 16.

situation B) enemy radar is front but is little below the level of the j20/f22. again, leading surfaces are not an issue. this time raptors tails' edges are exposed. so we have the same as above for raptor plus two horizontal tail edges plus tail root edge. thats 8 per side or 16 total. j20 this time has no chance of its canards obstructing any part of the wing so we're automatically talking about 8 edges per side or 16 total.

situation C) enemy radar is in front but is little above. this time j20 has theoretically a chance that its canted canards will obstruct one of the slat/wing joints so it may actually have 12 edges visible versus 16 on raptor.

but - one really designs all those shapes around the expected percentage of situations planes will find themselves in.

when one looks at a plane from the ground at 400 km away, one will have radar look at the plane at similar angle as situation A. as the plane moves closer, situation will change slowly to situation B. at which point does B become applicable? i don't know precisely. At 100 km away, a plane flying 15 km higher than the radar will be seen at an offset of some 6-7 degrees. that should be more than enough for a clear view of the horizontal tails. perhaps even half as large offset might be enough.

on the other hand, having platforms in the air that will look at j20 from above is hard. unless we're talking about awacs and a ground hugging j20. those situations will of course be much less common than a variety of ground radars searching for a high flying j20.

situation D - radar is at just the angle offset from the longitudinal axis of the plane so it can catch the big return of wings' leading surfaces. j20's surfaces are caught the same way as in situation A, while raptor still obstructs view to tails. but all that is less important since big return of whole length of leading surfaces dwarfs the combined returns of those tiny edges in situations A/B/C.

all this is very simplified, and there's a bunch more potential sources of return on the planes which i havent mentioned.
and none of this mentions materials, which may have progressed to be point where its practical to rely on them negating those edge returns for select radar wavelengths. so, shape wise, canards may be slightly worse solution, but in the end, when materials and angles at which planes get looked at and number of rcs spots are calculated - overall increase in rcs may not be even close to order of magnitude higher, and for certain wavelengths it may be basically the same.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
It seems like a bigger issue with J-20, because it does have more moving surfaces than F-22. Especially since something like canards, which can move to create 90 degree angle with rest of the aircraft. But then again, that's probably why you don't see any other 5th gen aircraft with it.

If the J-20 really needed to maintain its stealth its fcs could depend solely on the slats and elevons for motion, and if the J-20 is installed with TVC, then that as well. As others have said I don't see the J-20 needing such drastic deflections. The effect of such a deflection shouldn't be too different as an equivalent tail deflection in a conventional layout, since they're both instances where a surface might face 90 degrees to the radar beam. In that sort of situation the J-20 might do no worse than the F-22.

As for having no canard layout stealth planes, we haven't seen any other country put them in production, but we have seen other serious designs before, so that at least seems to suggest that canards aren't categorically and irrevocably harmful to achieving low RCS. Either way we''re dealing with a pretty low sample size.
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
Someone fact check me but I am 99% sure Lockheed's early design concepts of the JSF (f-35) had canards... and I'm also 99% sure that the reason it didn't make it had nothing to do with stealth or lacktherof.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
Someone fact check me but I am 99% sure Lockheed's early design concepts of the JSF (f-35) had canards... and I'm also 99% sure that the reason it didn't make it had nothing to do with stealth or lacktherof.
That's what I heard too. The reason the canards didn't make it were because they didn't play well with the lift fans. Also the naval version of the YF-23 was supposed to have canards too.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I meant I'm just not used to seeing photos with such an enormous difference between the foreground and what's being focused on. The huge difference means that the blurry flowers aren't just blurry. They look like something pasted onto the image and set at a low opacity. To be clear, I know it's a legit image. :) .
Awww, the J-20's even longer now. :p .

Long lenses must use a larger aperture to allow more light to enter from a relatively smaller field of view, in order to have sufficient light to create an image with sufficient detail, you may also "need" a slower shutter speed, hence long lenses on tripods, but you limit your "depth of field" or the area that is in focus. Hence the flowers, grass, in the front, and buildings etc in the back of the subject aircraft have less light transmission, hence your opacity
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
As to Lockheed Martins early JAST/JSF Concept...here's how that looked.

f35-concept-01.jpg

f35-concept-02.jpg


As to the number of control/stabilizor surfaces between the J20 and the F-22 that can impact to one degreee or another the RCS, here's what I count:

j20-control.jpg


f22-control.jpg


Most people foget the ventral fins on the J20.
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Someone fact check me but I am 99% sure Lockheed's early design concepts of the JSF (f-35) had canards... and I'm also 99% sure that the reason it didn't make it had nothing to do with stealth or lacktherof.

there are always drawings of this and that floating around prior to any design being finalized, "I know you know that, by the way", so lots of things come and go, but the reality is that in any RCS design, you want to eliminate any element that is not necessary for the mission at hand.... no canards are distinctly European in flavor, not on the American palate....
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Most people foget the ventral fins on the J20.

Actually, the original statement was regarding moving surfaces. The ventral fins are fixed.


It seems like a bigger issue with J-20, because it does have more moving surfaces than F-22. Especially since something like canards, which can move to create 90 degree angle with rest of the aircraft. But then again, that's probably why you don't see any other 5th gen aircraft with it.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
there are always drawings of this and that floating around prior to any design being finalized, "I know you know that, by the way", so lots of things come and go, but the reality is that in any RCS design, you want to eliminate any element that is not necessary for the mission at hand.... no canards are distinctly European in flavor, not on the American palate....

True but it's not unheard of in American aviation especially in the the experimental realm. A few notable canard planes are the f-15 Active, X-31, X 29. burt rutan is also a fan of canard.
 
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