J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread IV (Closed to posting)

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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Blitzo:

I do admit that the canards are superior for vortex control and for the fact that the LEVCONS under some conditions can block engine air flow, but canards are inferior for stealth.

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do you have an study to quote?

LCA reduced landing speed by using LEVCONs, Su-33 did the same with canards.
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In LCA as well PAKFA the need for vortex control and skipping the canard one for size reasons, since LCA did not want to increase fuselage size and on PAKFA drag and stealth were the reasons to chose LEVCONS.

About the engine being blocked well, i have not seen any study claiming it, since Eurofighter and F-15 use their intakes to adapt to high AoA flight, the LEVCON since is above the wing on T-50 and at high AoA the LEVCON basicly helps the air flow into the intake as the case of F-15 and Eurofighter moveable lips.

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So to be honest i do not think LEVCON is worse since canards have a increase in drag at level flight and the LEVCON works as vortex flap.

The LEVCON is good enough even to increase sustained turn rate on LCA
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Engineer

Major
You have a condescending or didactic air that makes people dislike arguing with you. If you're going to call me out for flaming, your attitude is getting to me and I am going to call you out for it.
So challenging your statements where you provided no backup is considered as didactic? Come on.

I'm not equivocating, but I said portholes for EODAS. We saw portholes on the aft of the aircraft, but people decided that those were maintenance portholes or vents for the engine as on the F-22.
People have identified more than those engine vents as candidates of EODAS. Realistically speaking, EODAS is just cameras. Similar to cameras used in vision research labs, the portholes for EODAS aren't going to be bigger than 5 cm at the most. Anything bigger than that is most likely not part of EODAS, and anything around that size is going to be too small to be seen other than in an ultra high-resolution image.

TVC provides additional maneuverability by allowing a fast change in the direction of thrust, which is probably more useful for instantaneous turn-rates than sustained turn rates as it entails at least a temporary reduction in the rear 0-degree thrust vector.
As speed decreases to zero, you do see an increase of instantaneous turn-rate on thrust-vectoring equipped aircraft. The effect of thrust-vectoring on instantaneous turn-rate diminishes rapidly as speed increases toward the corner speed. So, the effect is really just a manifestation of post-stall maneuverability.

As far as not affecting turning performance, let's do a thought experiment. An F-22 or Su-35BM is locked to a point in space and all rearward thrust is negated by an equivalent to Laplace's Demon exerting a countervailing pushing force. We assume that magically the airplane can sustain the complete push against its thrust force without falling apart. With the forward thrust vector completely removed, the upward or downward thrust vector while TVC is active and forces the F-22 to do somersaults. That's considered a turn. You can tilt the plane on its side and do the same thing. That's still a turn, even with a turn radius of 0 feet.
What you have described is nose pointing. While nose-pointing often occurs with change in flight direction which we call a turn, it is not always the case. A good example when this occurs is the
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.

Thrust-vectoring is really just another mechanism which allows the pitch and angle-of-attack of the aircraft to be changed. Thrust-vectoring does not add maneuverability that is not there to begin with.

Traveling waves that hit the canard eventually reach the rear of the canard and rescatter, creating unwanted emissions. With planform alignment, these waves can be mostly absorbed by the wing or other aspect of the aircraft and reduce the return emissions to the original source. But this is not superior to having a single wing, with a LEVCON attached in front, providing a single continuous structure.
LEVCON is a movable surface, so between it and the wing there exists a gap. Due to this gap, LEVCON and the wing cannot be considered as a single continuous structure. The existence of the gap also means there will also be re-scatter as the EM wave travel along the LEVCON surface and hit the trailing edge.

However, both canard on the J-20 and LEVCON on the PAKFA employ edge-alignment, which means radar energy does not get reflected back to the source. Energy that doesn't get back to the source can't be counted as increasing the RCS.

I do admit that the canards are superior for vortex control and for the fact that the LEVCONS under some conditions can block engine air flow, but canards are inferior for stealth.
I have to say LEVCON does not block air flow into the engine. You are probably imagining air to flow lengthwise to the aircraft, which is not always the case.

My argument has never been that wing-loading is the sole determinant of airframe performance, but rather that wing loading is one aspect of airframe performance and that other aerodynamic features can add to maneuverability despite having a poor wing-loading.

In the case of the F-22, the F-22 is augmented by having TVC nozzles to increase pitch control and increase turn rate, as well as having LERXes to enhance body lift. Comparing the F-22 and the F-15, the lower wing loading is compensated for by aerodynamic bells and whistles.

And as far as claiming that wing-loading is something completely irrelevant, we can make a determination of this quite easily.

Let's say, we have a J-10 loaded with 100% fuel and 50% fuel. The one with 100% fuel has higher wing loading, as it has the same wing area os the 50% fuel J-10, but also has higher weight. The one with higher fuel quantities will be less maneuverable than J-10 with lower fuel quantities because the lift force is acting on a lighter weight than the one with the full fuel.

All other factors being equal, the aircraft with the higher wing loading is less maneuverable. This can be compensated for by aerodynamic bells and whistles, of course.
When you compared J-20 to F-15 based on wing loading alone and claimed both have similar performance, you were considering wing loading as sole determinant of airframe performance. That is the implication of your generalization.

F-22 has higher wing loading than F-15, yet F-22 has better performance. So, using wing loading as a gauge of performance doesn't work. The fact is that simple, and it isn't going to change by your belittling of F-22 more sophisticated aerodynamics as "bells and whistles".
 

Engineer

Major
Canards are not worse for stealth, that is true, but tailplanes are better behind the wing since they are shielded by the wing reducing the RCS from a frontal aspect, J-20 has worse RCS than F-22 simply for that, its canards with dihedral are not shielded from a frontal view by the wing and basicly are very visible from a frontal view, having also diferent angle than the vertical tails and ventral tails increasing RCS into another direction.

Shielded or not shielded, the presence of edge alignment on the canard will ensure radar wave to be reflected away from the source. Counting something that doesn't register on the sensor is silly, and is no more than a poor attempt to portray J-20 RCS to be bigger than what it truly is.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Blitzo:

Yeah, I'd agree that the windows on the side of the nose are contenders, but they don't seem to be evident all around the body like the 360-degree EODAS system of the F-35.

With regards to Engineer:

You have a condescending or didactic air that makes people dislike arguing with you. If you're going to call me out for flaming, your attitude is getting to me and I am going to call you out for it.



I'm not equivocating, but I said portholes for EODAS. We saw portholes on the aft of the aircraft, but people decided that those were maintenance portholes or vents for the engine as on the F-22.
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Judging by this image, at least one of the details on the aft belly does not seem to be an exhaust/maintenance port. That said, I'm not entirely sure you can determine 360 EODAS capability by examining the surface of an airplane. Maybe you know better, but I can't seem to find details on the F-35 that would indicate an EO aperture.
TVC provides additional maneuverability by allowing a fast change in the direction of thrust, which is probably more useful for instantaneous turn-rates than sustained turn rates as it entails at least a temporary reduction in the rear 0-degree thrust vector.

As far as not affecting turning performance, let's do a thought experiment. An F-22 or Su-35BM is locked to a point in space and all rearward thrust is negated by an equivalent to Laplace's Demon exerting a countervailing pushing force. We assume that magically the airplane can sustain the complete push against its thrust force without falling apart. With the forward thrust vector completely removed, the upward or downward thrust vector while TVC is active and forces the F-22 to do somersaults. That's considered a turn. You can tilt the plane on its side and do the same thing. That's still a turn, even with a turn radius of 0 feet.
I think the physics you've mentioned is sound. The question is what is the utility of such a maneuver, and whether the trade-offs/benefits are worthwhile in a scenario where such a maneuver would apply. As this debate about TVC continues, I'm finding the discussion revolving far more around strategy and tactic than around hard performance numbers. Context is far more important to figuring out combat performance than numbers are.

Personally, I find the argument that modern day dogfighting is about energy management convincing. From that angle, TVC may not be as beneficial, since the trade-offs for a tight instantaneous turn are slower airspeed and lost energy, which handicaps your agility for later maneuvers. If you sacrifice all that energy and airspeed for a good angle, and you don't make the shot, and your opponent has conserved more energy than you, you're basically dead. This IS less of a problem if you have a powerful engine with a quick spool time/acceleration to max thrust, and a good T:W, but it is still a problem. I'm still convinced that there is a utility to TVC, but I'm no longer sure whether the PLAAF would find that utility worthwhile given potential costs in development time and weight. That said, my inclination is that if they can guarantee a powerful high performance engine they will go with TVC, since the penalties in the performance tradeoffs would be greatly lessened.


EDIT: I should mention that one take away for agility and dogfighting performance from the energy management perspective is that it's not simply about how quickly you can turn, roll, pitch, etc, or how high an angle of attack you can reach before stall, but more importantly how efficiently you can maneuver. The less the drag penalty when executing a maneuver, the better for survivability and performance.

Traveling waves that hit the canard eventually reach the rear of the canard and rescatter, creating unwanted emissions. With planform alignment, these waves can be mostly absorbed by the wing or other aspect of the aircraft and reduce the return emissions to the original source. But this is not superior to having a single wing, with a LEVCON attached in front, providing a single continuous structure.

I do admit that the canards are superior for vortex control and for the fact that the LEVCONS under some conditions can block engine air flow, but canards are inferior for stealth.
Again, solid points on physics. However, as somewhat implied in my earlier response about TVC, this is where physics and engineering diverge. Engineering is ultimately about taking knowledge and using it to solve problems. That means that the science itself matters less than the solution derived from the science. Canards may present a more challenging problem than LERXes in terms of signal management, but that does not preclude a better solution. This basic fact of engineering is why no one should trust armchair quarterbacking...and why all this talk about such feature being worse or better than such other feature is a waste of time. Engineering is about results, and therefore specific measurements, and not about which general principles of physics are evoked to their benefit or drawback.


My argument has never been that wing-loading is the sole determinant of airframe performance, but rather that wing loading is one aspect of airframe performance and that other aerodynamic features can add to maneuverability despite having a poor wing-loading.

In the case of the F-22, the F-22 is augmented by having TVC nozzles to increase pitch control and increase turn rate, as well as having LERXes to enhance body lift. Comparing the F-22 and the F-15, the lower wing loading is compensated for by aerodynamic bells and whistles.

===

And as far as claiming that wing-loading is something completely irrelevant, we can make a determination of this quite easily.

Let's say, we have a J-10 loaded with 100% fuel and 50% fuel. The one with 100% fuel has higher wing loading, as it has the same wing area os the 50% fuel J-10, but also has higher weight. The one with higher fuel quantities will be less maneuverable than J-10 with lower fuel quantities because the lift force is acting on a lighter weight than the one with the full fuel.

All other factors being equal, the aircraft with the higher wing loading is less maneuverable. This can be compensated for by aerodynamic bells and whistles, of course.

And I think Engineer's point is that wing loading is simply not a significant factor because it's a heuristic measurement for lifting force/area (pressure exerted through lift). I'm somewhat doubtful that the F-22 achieves greater turning performance than the F-15 simply because it has TVC, since TVC aids instantaneous turn rates but not sustained turn rates. My inclination (and I'd need to find evidence for this) is that the predominant reason the F-22 has a better turn rate than the F-15 is because despite the F-15's wing loading, the F-22 simply generates more net lift force per area of wing in the full flight envelope of a turn (considering the full flight envelope is important since lifting force won't stay consistent at all alphas!). Ultimately it's about pressure distribution to weight (and the momentum from those two interacting! Where a force acts is just as important as how much force!), of which wing area and weight only play a secondary role in determining.

The J-10 example addresses the weight portion of the benefits of wing loading, but all it really points out is that for a given amount of applied force on an object, objects of lower weight will be faster/quicker than objects of higher weight. It's not wing loading that's creating the performance difference between a J-10 with 50% and 100% fuel loads, but the amount of force applied to the specific weight. That's not really an argument for good wing loading, but good weight. Ultimately the reason wing loading is used is because it is a (I would argue sloppy) heuristic to determine net lift force over area (where area, depending on other factors, may have a negative effect on lifting force), which is what makes it a bad measure of performance for advanced aerodynamic bodies.

Shielded or not shielded, the presence of edge alignment on the canard will ensure radar wave to be reflected away from the source. Counting something that doesn't register on the sensor is silly, and is no more than a poor attempt to portray J-20 RCS to be bigger than what it truly is.

I think the point he makes is fair. There is going to be back scatter from creeping waves when you have more surface discontinuities, which could make it more difficult to manage reflections at the relevant angles. The question is 1)whether those angles are relevant to detection (as you suggested), and 2) whether the consequences are negligent, either because of the inherent physics involved, or because of some solution that effectively mitigates the concern.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Blitzo:

Yeah, I'd agree that the windows on the side of the nose are contenders, but they don't seem to be evident all around the body like the 360-degree EODAS system of the F-35.

There are a few possible reasons for this:

1: the photos we have and the positions they are in simply make it difficult to spot. We can barely distinguish the apertures on the nose as it is.
2: each individual aperture may not look the same, even on the F-35, some positions are larger than others, there is no reason some could not be smaller than others as well.

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3: we've only seen two prototypes and perhaps the other EODAS apertures simply haven't been installed yet because they've had no reason to test them, and the two nose "windows" are actually empty.

I think either way, it's a little bit presumptuous to suggest CAC would have overlooked the benefits of a 360 degree passive detection system.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
And I think Engineer's point is that wing loading is simply not a significant factor because it's a heuristic measurement for lifting force/area (pressure exerted through lift). I'm somewhat doubtful that the F-22 achieves greater turning performance than the F-15 simply because it has TVC, since TVC aids instantaneous turn rates but not sustained turn rates. My inclination (and I'd need to find evidence for this) is that the predominant reason the F-22 has a better turn rate than the F-15 is because despite the F-15's wing loading, the F-22 simply generates more net lift force per area of wing in the full flight envelope of a turn (considering the full flight envelope is important since lifting force won't stay consistent at all alphas!). .

You are wrong, TVC nozzles do increase ITR, and the only reason F-22 has better lift is due to no external aerodynamic cluttering and the other fact, is TVC nozzles reduce aerodynamic controls deflections thus reducing drag and increasing lift.

If you would take the TVC nozzles out of the F-22 and the add external weapons you will see F-22 is not superior to F-15.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
You are wrong, TVC nozzles do increase ITR, and the only reason F-22 has better lift is due to no external aerodynamic cluttering and the other fact, is TVC nozzles reduce aerodynamic controls deflections thus reducing drag and increasing lift.

If you would take the TVC nozzles out of the F-22 and the add external weapons you will see F-22 is not superior to F-15.

Uhh...did I say TVC doesn't increase ITR? No I did not. I said that the reason the F-22's turn rate is better than the F-15s is probably more attributable to its aerodynamics than TVC. Different conclusions. And until either of us see a CFD or a wind tunnel simulation, I don't think either of us have conclusive claims about what exactly is going on, but I highly doubt that whatever drag reductions that may come from using TVC over aerodynamic surfaces (if any) would be significant enough to contribute to such a difference between turn rates.
 

Engineer

Major
You are wrong, TVC nozzles do increase ITR, and the only reason F-22 has better lift is due to no external aerodynamic cluttering and the other fact, is TVC nozzles reduce aerodynamic controls deflections thus reducing drag and increasing lift.

If you would take the TVC nozzles out of the F-22 and the add external weapons you will see F-22 is not superior to F-15.

Wrong. Without external stores, the F-15 is still far inferior to the F-22 in performance. F-15's sustained turn-rate is only around 15 degrees per second. Let's give F-15 more benefits and say the value is 20 degrees per second and equals to the instantaneous turn-rate. The new value is still far below the F-22's sustained turn-rate of 28 degrees per second. So, unlike your claim, cluttering due to external stores isn't the reason. It is the more advanced aerodynamics such as vortex induced lift being employed that gives the F-22 the better performance.

As far as thrust-vectoring capability is concerned, taking it out of the F-22 means post-stall capability is lost. However, maneuverability would still be the same, since thrust-vectoring does not produce extra lift to increase sustained turn rate. At very low speed where thrust-vectoring could shine, the F-22 still has better performance than F-15 by virtue of having better aerodynamics thus able to achieve higher maximum angle-of-attack.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Uhh...did I say TVC doesn't increase ITR? No I did not. I said that the reason the F-22's turn rate is better than the F-15s is probably more attributable to its aerodynamics than TVC. Different conclusions. And until either of us see a CFD or a wind tunnel simulation, I don't think either of us have conclusive claims about what exactly is going on, but I highly doubt that whatever drag reductions that may come from using TVC over aerodynamic surfaces (if any) would be significant enough to contribute to such a difference between turn rates.

Well that data already is available

see
Figure 9-15. Role rate performance, showing the effect of thrust vectoring. (Courtesy of LMAS)

in fact see

The F-22 is the most recent airplane to require high angle of attack capability. Charles Wilson from
Lockheed Martin gave a talk at Virginia Tech in November of 1996. He left a copy of the charts he
used in his discussion of the high angle of attack development effort. He showed the effect of the
LE flap schedule on the lateral/directional characteristics and the nose down pitching moment
across the angle of attack range including the effect of thrust vectoring. Finally, he included the
maximum roll rate as a function of angle of attack, also showing the benefit of thrust vectoring, and
in comparison with the F-15.
Copies of selected viewgraphs from his presentation are shown here
in Figures 9-12 through 9-15. A related paper on the F-22 is by Clark and Bernens.1


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The charts show F-22 without TVC nozzles is even inferior to the F-16

simply because it has TVC, since TVC aids instantaneous turn rates but not sustained turn rates. My inclination (and I'd need to find evidence for this) is that the predominant reason the F-22 has a better turn rate than the F-15 is because despite the F-15's wing loading, .
yes you said TVC nozzles do not help STR which is also false
 
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HKSDU

Junior Member
guys please not this again. i'm sick to death with this stuff. thought leaving sinodefenceforum for a year would improve but its still the same so much off topic nonsense.
 
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