J-15 carrier fighter thread

[nosh]

Re: PLAN's first Carrier Strike Fighter the J-15 Flying shark

btw, on this subject of J-15. Andrew Erickson and Gabe Collins posted a new article.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and then I wrote a review of it

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

and then Andrew Erickson linked my review on his site, lol

about the radome thing, we've seen J-10B not having black radome. In fact, J-15 has the same grey radome. I wonder if that's just for the testing stage or the colour means something.

I don't buy the "STOBAR cannot launch fixed-wing AEW" argument. "Experts" from United States always claim that when Russia and China are pursuing carrier capability. But that is not what United States told UK and India when trying to sell them E-2s.

 

[kroko]

Re: PLAN's first Carrier Strike Fighter the J-15 Flying shark

I don't buy the "STOBAR cannot launch fixed-wing AEW" crap. "Experts" from United States always claim that when Russia and China are pursuing carrier capability. But that is not what United States told UK and India when trying to sell them E-2s.

I posted about this sometime ago. Dont remember quite well, but I think that the indian navy found that the E-2 performance was so degraded (probably due to the limited amount of fuel carried due to weight constraints) that getting the E-2 on india´s carriers was not worth the cost.

 

[Blitzo]

Re: PLAN's first Carrier Strike Fighter the J-15 Flying shark

But I do not think the J15 will really ever be able to match the Rafale no matter how much they upgraded it. The J15 is limited by the Flanker airframe, and will always have a larger RCS compared to the Rafale, and may well be less agile if we assume the Rafale is roughly inline with the J10 in terms of agility, and we all know who wins between a J10 and J11.

I do not think J-15 can match Rafale's RCS, but if the PLAN decides to pursue J-15 more, they can match the rafale in avionics and with more powerful engines and TVC... imho the flanker can be upgraded very much, which far outweights limitations of the flanker's RCS.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: PLAN's first Carrier Strike Fighter the J-15 Flying shark

That is assuming that China has to start from scratch. They don't have to becaue they have a model to go by and the technology doesn't change that much over the years .

In 1984 china purchased HMAS Melbourne complete with the catapult I bet they take the catapult apart and studied it to death. Then they must built prototype updated it with new electronic and improve it or enlarge it. Experiment it over number of years Voila you got yourself pretty good catapult

It could well be...but others have also tried.

We shall see. I do not believe, despite all of the years and efforts, that a catapault has been built into the Varyag. If they were ready with one, you can bet they would put it on there, for the very rerasons I outlined above, and they could put two in the waist positon, amidships. I cerrtainly would do that if I were they and they have certainly had enough time to do so...yet we see no evidence of it on the Varyag.

Perhaps the indegenous carriers.

Time will tell.

 

[Blitzo]

Re: PLAN's first Carrier Strike Fighter the J-15 Flying shark

It could well be...but others have also tried.

We shall see. I do not believe, despite all of the years and efforts, that a catapault has been built into the Varyag. If they were ready with one, you can bet they would put it on there, for the very rerasons I outlined above, and they could put two in the waist positon, amidships. I cerrtainly would do that if I were they and they have certainly had enough time to do so...yet we see no evidence of it on the Varyag.

I personally disagree -- I do not believe the Varyag was designed with the capability to fit catapults on the waist, so if the PLAN decided to fit steam cats there the sheer amount of work and time necessary to install it would outweigh the benefits. That may well add another few years to the Varyag's fitting out and I dont' think the PLAN are willing to wait that long WRT the country's economic growth and the missions the Chinese navy may have to perform in the near future.
A delay of say, two or three years could turn out to hit them harder later on down the road in capability.

 

[nosh]

Re: PLAN's first Carrier Strike Fighter the J-15 Flying shark

I posted about this sometime ago. Dont remember quite well, but I think that the indian navy found that the E-2 performance was so degraded (probably due to the limited amount of fuel carried due to weight constraints) that getting the E-2 on india´s carriers was not worth the cost.

There could be many reasons why India doesn't choose E-2D. Unfortunately little information is available for the public. United States has been very tight-lipped on its ski-jump tests results.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Re: PLAN's first Carrier Strike Fighter the J-15 Flying shark

I personally disagree -- I do not believe the Varyag was designed with the capability to fit catapults on the waist, so if the PLAN decided to fit steam cats there the sheer amount of work and time necessary to install it would outweigh the benefits. That may well add another few years to the Varyag's fitting out and I dont' think the PLAN are willing to wait that long WRT the country's economic growth and the missions the Chinese navy may have to perform in the near future.
A delay of say, two or three years could turn out to hit them harder later on down the road in capability.

Thanks Blitzo that is the most likely explaination, why they didn't fit in catapult in Varyag. It is almost impossible to change the layout inside the varyag to fit in catapult ,when they are not designed with catapult in the first place

Money and effort will be better used to design the follow on carriere

 

[siegecrossbow]

Re: PLAN's first Carrier Strike Fighter the J-15 Flying shark

I don't know why you guys are so concerned about whether the Varyag will employ catapults or not. This is China's first attempt at carriers. Later indigenous carriers will certainly feature electromagnetic catapults. We have papers indicating that China is doing research in this area.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: PLAN's first Carrier Strike Fighter the J-15 Flying shark

I do not believe the Varyag was designed with the capability to fit catapults on the waist, so if the PLAN decided to fit steam cats there the sheer amount of work and time necessary to install it would outweigh the benefits.

I agree..completely. It was part of my point. But clearly they are not ready with one...probably both technically at this time and financially for their immediate plans.

...and yet the Russians have talked about, and continue to talk about doing exactly that to the Kuznetsov.

My point is simple. Catapults, even the steam variety, or not an easy thing. If the PLAN could do it with the Varyag in the many years they have been refitting her, they most certainly would have.

I have no doubt that they have run into the same type of difficulties that the Russians and several others who have contemplated this issue have run into which are both technical and financial.

Now, I have no doubt that the PLAN will solve it, and I expect to see an indegenous carrier one day with cats of some type, be they steam or EMAL.

I also expect, depending on what type of service life they intend with the new Varyag, that they could contemplate (as the Russians are doing) a refit at some point. I have no doubt that once they have designed and implemented them, they could do it, depending (as you say) on the cost and the amount of time then left on the Varyag's hull.

There has been talk for years that the Russians intended this type of thing with this class (both Kuznetsov and Varyag) at some point in the future. The fact that they are still considering it on this upcming big refit for the Kuznetsov (if they can afford it) speaks top this.

Oh well...we've truly beat this to death. Fact is, there are none and will not be any when the vessel launches and goes to trials and then into operation. However, the fact that they have such a vessel with J-15s coming online and the ability to put them to sea is a large accomplishment for the PRC and the PLAN. One we've all been talking about and contemplating for years. Now it's about to happen.

 

[delft]

Re: PLAN's first Carrier Strike Fighter the J-15 Flying shark

The Chinese will have simulated the use of both types of cat, the EM one also incorporated into the ski jump. They have probably concluded that the future lays with the EM cats and avoided developing the steam cat.
The Dutch carrier Karel Doorman ( the second one ) was a Colossus type British carrier, originally HMS Venerable, taken over in 1948 and sold to Argentina in 1969. From July, 1955 to June, 1958 she was rebuild with angled deck and with a steam cat
replacing a hydraulic one. For Varyag the operation would probably be more complex and that for what is probably a dead end technology.