J-15 carrier fighter thread

[Jeff Head]

Well, since the Liaoning has been qualifying weapons loadout on the J-15, we do not need to speculate about certain weapon fits. We now have pictures of the Chinese doing it.

We do not know what fuel load they had when they did this, so it is difficult to talk about maxuimum take-off weights and the like. We have to presume that the "weapons," though probably inert, were actual training rounds and therefore accurate portrayals of the real thing in order to satisfy the weight, aerodynamic, and weight distribution calculations necessary to truly simulate the real thing.

So, let's look at a few pics:

Here's a couple of J-15s carrying two, wing-tip short range air to air missiles (Note: The second one is a special for Air Froce Brat 'cause I kow he would like that "top gun" look...hehehe! Notice the Liaoning off of his left shoulder, below.)

​

(Later) Oops! On closer examination, I see a longer range air to air missile poking out of the first picture on the centerline below the fueselage, so I have to presume there are two there...so that first pic really belongs in this next section.

Now let's look at a couple of pics with the J-15 carrying four air to air missiles. Both of these are two wing-tip short range air to air missiles and two, centerline mounted, longer range air to air missiles. Mounted below the fuselage.

​

Finally, the largest loadout I have seen to date (if anyone has pics of larger ones off of the Liaoning for J-15s, please let us know). These are J-15s off of the Liaoning with two wing-tip air to air missiles, and two wing pylon mounted air to surface missiles, which took off and landed on the Liaoning during some of the qualification testing we have seen.

​

There's probably been a lot more we have not seen...but we are getting a feel for the types of loadouts they are testing.

Believe me, any other carrier group, or any naval task force, would have to have great respect for the potential of a group of say, sixteen J-15s aircraft approaching with twelve of them carrying two LR ASMs each, and four of them fitted for air defense carrying four to six AAMs of various types. Such a group of aircraft could cause very serious harm to any task force if it were able to get through.

 

[Preux]

I remember that.. and I do not nor will I ever understand all the math involved. I just do not feel it can take off with a full load. Just my opinion.

Once again..I do not intend to argue with anyone. I'm just reflecting my experience in service aboard aircraft carriers.

It is important to remember that the Su-33 (and by extension, the J-15 to an extent), while having a similar shape and engines, is heavier by about half a tonne than the Su-30; with a MTOW about 1.5 t less; so I think that alone already covers your intuitive concerns about why it can take off with a full load - the answer is, because its full load is really a fair bit less than it would have been had it been designed with a catapult in mind from the get-go - and given a catapult, it is possible that it could take off with more.

I think that should explain your feelings while reconciling what we are hearing about the J-15.

 

[Preux]

Official Russian data says all : Su-33 empty weight 19600 kg , normal takeoff weight , 26000 kg , MTOW from carrier 29940 kg , MTOW from land 33000 kg , normal landing weight maximum landing weight 26000 kg ,normal landing weight 22400 kg , maximum internal fuel 9500 kg . Russians never attempted takeoff with theoretical maximum weight , and even if they did , with maximum internal fuel Su-33 could carry only 4-6 AAMs . As for China , best picture I have seen was 4x500kg bombs + 2xPL-8 . Yes , I think J-15 could carry more , but don't expect anything over 4-4.5 t from Liaoning .

Oddly enough, this particular bit mostly agrees with what we know; the buzz suggests, and I quote:

(20131104开贴)歼15 9吨内油还可以挂5吨弹药。 对海 鹰击83K 5枚 两格斗弹 3.7吨左右。 对地 500公斤激光制导炸弹6枚或者憋版JDMA或者KD88A 两枚格斗弹 3.5吨 空战8枚PL12C加4枚PL10 3吨。这些是195米起飞点挂载能力。
1 . 2 号起飞点 7.5吨内油 6枚霹雳12C 4枚霹雳10 2吨多一点。。。。。
这是飞出来的数据。
至于9吨内油 5吨弹药挂载，只飞了两三次。。。具体什么挂载 先不说了

I'll give a personal translation which ought to be better than the machine one:

J-15, with 9 tonnes of internal fuel, can take off with 5 tonnes of munitions. Anti-sea, 5 x YJ-83K and 2 x SRAAM, 3.7 tonnes. Anti-ground 6x 500kg LGB or 6 x 500 kg Chinese-JDAM or KD-88A, plus 2 x SRAAM, 3.5 tonnes. FAD, 8 x PL-12C + 4 PL-10, 3 tonnes. This is the sort of load you can get from the 195 m take-off point.

At take off points 1 and 2, 7.5 tonnes of internal fuel, 6 x PL-12C + 4 PL-10, a bit over 2 tonnes...

This is what we got from flying the birds.

As for 9 tonnes of internal fuel and 5 tonnes of munitions, we've only done it 2-3 times. I won't elaborate on the exact loadout

 

[thunderchief]

Thunderchief, where did you get the 29.9 ton, supposed carrier take off figure comes from? I'd be interested to see a source.
The sukhoi manufacturers website mentions only 33 tons as MTOW and nothing about a carrier specific weight.

Russian wiki , with books as reference :

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

And I'd like to see the basis for your calculations on the Mig-29K taking off from liaoning versus vikramditya. For instance, is the liaoning's take off distance appreciably longer than vikramditya's?

Liaoning's longest takeoff point is somewhere around 230 m , and Vikramaditya's around 200 m . For the sake of the argument we could reduce that difference to 20m . Assuming Mig-29K takeoff speed of 250km/h at 200m , that would give acceleration of 11.9 m/s*s . Those extra 20 m would then yield more then 10km/h increase in speed . Now , lift rises with square of velocity , therefore if Mig-29K with 250km/h could takeoff with weight of 18500 kg , with 260km/h it could takeoff with 20000 kg . These are very rough calculations , but I think you catch my drift

Ultimately you don't address my point where I say that using the same ski jump and flight conditions, both Mig-29K and Su-33 should only be able to take off with a similar percentage of their MTOW. Unless there is substantial evidence to suggest that Mig-29Ks aerodynamics and/or structural design is inherently superior to the Su-33 in some way, this is the null hypothesis which should be held.

There are structural differences , Mig-29K is not scaled-down copy of Su-33 . Mig-29K wings are proportionally bigger ,and Su-33 has proportionally bigger payload , but only when taking-off from land .

 

[thunderchief]

Video of J-15 qualifying weapons loadouts ( bombs at 0:18 , missiles at 0:24 )

[video=youtube;ak7MEWbMCmU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak7MEWbMCmU&html5=1[/video]

 

[Blitzo]

Russian wiki , with books as reference :

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The only place I see the 29940 kg figure is at the bottom, the "specs" list, and that is normal take off weight with full fuel, not maximum take off weight, which is listed as 33 tons.

And on the subject of wikipedia, the english wikipedia says:

Even using the station which afforded shortest take-off run of only 105m, Su-33 can take off easily with full fuel and weapons load.

And its citation, is:
Gordon, Yefim (2001). Flankers, The New Generation. Midland Publishing. p. 91. ISBN 1 85780 121 0.

So if anyone has a copy of this book, perhaps we can settle it once and for all.

Liaoning's longest takeoff point is somewhere around 230 m , and Vikramaditya's around 200 m . For the sake of the argument we could reduce that difference to 20m . Assuming Mig-29K takeoff speed of 250km/h at 200m , that would give acceleration of 11.9 m/s*s . Those extra 20 m would then yield more then 10km/h increase in speed . Now , lift rises with square of velocity , therefore if Mig-29K with 250km/h could takeoff with weight of 18500 kg , with 260km/h it could takeoff with 20000 kg . These are very rough calculations , but I think you catch my drift

Actually, Liaoning's longest take off point is 195m and Vikramditya's longest is 180m I believe.

I concede that if Liaoning's take off point is longer than Vicky's, then yes, Mig-29K would have a greater take off weight on the longer take off.

However, this takes us back to the original problem, which is whether Mig-29K and Su-33 taking off from an equal distance ski jump would somehow mean the Mig-29K can take off with a proportionally higher take off weight.

(Btw, note I say "take off weight" rather than "payload," because "take off weight" includes internal fuel, which Su-33 has much more space for than Mig-29K, which contributes to its MTOW. Measuring take off weight is the only fair way to compare the two, imo)

There are structural differences , Mig-29K is not scaled-down copy of Su-33 . Mig-29K wings are proportionally bigger, and Su-33 has proportionally bigger payload , but only when taking-off from land .

Mig-29K isn't a scaled down copy of Su-33, I agree. However, do we have anything to suggest that it is aerodynamically different enough to yield so great of a performance difference as you suggest?

And what do you mean by "proportionally bigger"? Proportional to what? To length, to MTOW?
Furthermore, both Mig-29K and Su-33 use their body for lift as well, so simply looking at their wing area isn't wholly representative. Unfortunately it is difficult to eyeball overall lift.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Official Russian data says all : Su-33 empty weight 19600 kg , normal takeoff weight , 26000 kg , MTOW from carrier 29940 kg , MTOW from land 33000 kg , normal landing weight maximum landing weight 26000 kg ,normal landing weight 22400 kg , maximum internal fuel 9500 kg . Russians never attempted takeoff with theoretical maximum weight , and even if they did , with maximum internal fuel Su-33 could carry only 4-6 AAMs . As for China , best picture I have seen was 4x500kg bombs + 2xPL-8 . Yes , I think J-15 could carry more , but don't expect anything over 4-4.5 t from Liaoning .
.



Liaoning has at least 20m longer deck then Vikramaditya ,and by my rough calculation that would amount to at least 10km/h larger exit speed , which on the other hand means that you could have 500-1000 kg bigger payload .

As for J-15/Su-33 you have official Russian data ,and you have operational practice . We have seen what Mig-29K could do , but so far (as far as I know) no Su-33/J-15 did takeoff from carrier with more then 3t payload . I/m certain they could go over 4t , but not much beyond that .



With new Sea Wasp engines T/W ratio on full afterburner is roughly equal . Mig-29K has slightly lower wing loading . Main advantage is difference between MTOW from carrier and MTOW on land . On Mig-29K this difference is very small for Kuznetsov/Liaoning . Unfortunately J-15/Su-33 could carry enormous payload , but not from these carriers . Therefore , currently they are underutilized . Su-33 is done deal . As for J-15 , new engines and longer deck would make miracles

I believe your data here is correct, however some have asked for a link. It is not the least bit unusual for the J-15 to have a higher gross takeoff weight from land than from the carrier, a difference of approx. 3000kgs... and fuel is counted as payload, over and above empty weight. Their is no reason to fill the tanks on the J-15, none whatsoever, as it takes away any margin you might have for losing an engine, the standard operating procedure is to carry enough fuel to fly the mission and a reserve, usually 45mins to an hour, depending on weather, etc, etc,. Now if that reserve where required to return to a land base in case of weather or what have you, that reserve would need to go up, and that would require you to adjust your weapons load-out. This aircraft is always going to be carrying the minimum practical load-out of weapons and fuel, since there is the option to top-off from a buddy refueler, that is also an ace up your sleeve

As bd noted, large aircraft take up more room, in the hanger, on the elevator, and on deck, invariably the mission aircraft is at the back of the hanger, around the big hanger we used to use boards to raise or lower a wing when it was necessary to move aircraft in such a manner that the wings had to overlap when getting aircraft in or out;

 

[bd popeye]

As bd noted, large aircraft take up more room, in the hanger, on the elevator, and on deck, invariably the mission aircraft is at the back of the hanger, around the big hanger we used to use boards to raise or lower a wing when it was necessary to move aircraft in such a manner that the wings had to overlap when getting aircraft in or out;

I'm happy someone understands. On Hancock all we had was Crusaders, Skyhawks, Willie Fudds & Helos. A re-spot for the next launch took no time at all. But on America and Nimitz with those Tomcats they were still respotting aircraft up to about 10 minutes before launch. That is a fact. Big airplanes are time consuming to move about a CV.

And on any of the ships I served on JFK we had Vigilantes.. what a pain to move...

 

[Jeff Head]

I thought I would post this here. It's about a man in Russia who was instrumental...very instrumental...in the development of the SU-33 as the main aircraft for the Russian carrier naval aviation arm, and as such, also was therefore a heavy influence, even if indirectly, on the J-15 program.

That man's name was, Major-General Timur Apakidze, hero of the Russian Federation.

​

He was born into the Royal Family of Georgia in 1954, and was sent to the Soviet Union's best military training and education. Upon his graduation he was personally recommended to the Kremlin for special notice because of his extraordinary capabilities. He became a Major at the age of 29. And ultimately was brought into the fledgling carrier naval aviation program.

He landed the first SU-33 aboard the Kuznetsov. He established most of the training regiment for all other pilots. He was probably the most influential person who kept the Kuznetsov from being decommissioned and laid up like so many other Soviet era capitol vessels were after the fall of the Soviet Union.

Even though numbers, and training dwindled to next to nothing for many years, he kept the program alive and was its heart and soul, and the energy upon which it survived.

Even though living and working in the Ukraine at the time of the collapse of the Soviet Union, and even though he was a native Georgian, he refused high level appointments to command the Air forces from both countries, replying simply, "You swear only once."

He actually was an official Hero of the Russian Federation with a "Gold Star" distinction presented to him directly by the Russian Federation President in 1995.

He was killed at an airshow in 2001, flying a SU-33 when it malfunctioned, and trying to get the aircraft to the runway and away from any onlookers. He would have been 60 this year.

Here's a great video about him (all in Russian). Listen to him lecture, watch him fly. This guy was one driven individual.

[video=youtube;y0HB-fav4VE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0HB-fav4VE[/video]
​

 

[Blackstone]

I thought I would post this here. It's about a man in Russia who was instrumental...ver instrumental...in the development of the SU-33 as the main aircraft for the Russian carrier naval aviation arm, and as such, also was therefore a heavy influence, even if indirectly, on the J-15 program.

That man's name was, Major-General Timur Apakidze, hero of the Russian Federation.

​

He was killed at an airshow in 2001, flying a SU-33 when it malfunctioned, and trying to get the aircraft to the runway and away from any onlookers. He would have been 60 this year.

A true hero!