J-15 carrier fighter thread

[xiabonan]

Don't be too short-sighted.

I don't even understand why Mig29 should be an option for China, for the PLAN.

Ever since the day China chose Su27 over Mig29 in the initial batch of purchase more than 20 years ago, Mig29 shouldn't even be an option for China any more.

China made the determination to buy/reverse-engineer the Su33 from a long long time ago. There were reportedly numerous talks to purchase the Su33, but due to small number of purchase Russians were not willing to sell them. Then China resorted to getting the T10K, which is one of the original prototypes of the Su33, from Ukraine. Mind you that this is one or even two decades ago when China didn't have a lot of funding (in fact it's really terrible to the point where China's defense spending is less than Taiwan in the early 90s! And majority of that money went to the Army!). Even in the darkest and most difficult days we were determined to have large capable multi-role carrier fighters.

We should build larger and more capable, more well-designed carriers to accommodate the J15, not the other way-round. Sooner or later we're going to build larger carriers, by then, only large fighters like the J15 will be able to push that new Supercarrier to her full potential (achieve maximum power projection range, more ordinance carried, etc etc).

Another factor to consider is that, a carrier needs to serve for as long as half a century, it's the aircrafts that determines the power of the carrier, the the aircrafts get upgraded once in a while (classic example is the USS Midway). with a carrier designed to meet the needs of the J15, it can carry aircrafts smaller or up to the size of J15. This would give the new carrier aircraft designers a lot more room to push their limits. Seriously speaking, the J15/Su33 is almost as big as it get when it comes to carrier fighters.

Another thing is, why would someone assume that it is "difficult" to operate the J15s on the Liaoning? For one, the Liaoning, when designed as the Varyag, was designed with the mission to carry Su33s as her fighters. They should work together like a natural pair. Why would it be "difficult"? The Varyag actually has many modifications based on experience learnt on the previous ship, one famous example is that the ski jump angle is said to have been modified from 12 degrees to 14 degrees. These modifications should make the pair work even better. In any case it shouldn't be "difficult" or "frustrating" to operate. I believe Soviet designers weren't mad, they must have done their best although limited by the technologies available to them.

The Russians had the choice of Mig29K and Su33, and yet they chose Su33. This should be a very good proof that the Varyag class would be more powerful with Su33s, instead of Mig29Ks.

Apart from range and payload, another important advantage of the Su33/J15 platform is that you get much upgrade potential with a larger airframe. There's so much more possibilities and so much more you can do when your plane is larger. And it's not larger by a bit. With the limitation of the Ski Jump, the J15 can already achieve a respectable range and payload due to its sheer size, just imagine what will be the possibilities when she is paired with a modern 10,000 tonnes nuclear powered CATOBAR carrier that's designed with her in mind? And when she gets better engines? Better composite materials to reduce weight? Even more types of ordinance? Even better radar which is again benefited from her large nose? Although these are all possible upgrades for the Mig29K, but her much smaller size inherently limits the upgradability.

After all carriers and carrier programmes are long-term, they may well span half a century or even more than that. One really needs to look into the future and not just the current Liaoning/J15 combination. Albeit a fully operational aircraft carrier, her other important missions are research and training.

 

[chuck731]

Mig-29 was never really an option for the Chinese. PLAAF embraced su-27 Back in 1992 when all versions of mig-29 then in service had abysmal range. Since that time Chinese aviation industry had focused on reverse engineering, enhancing, and keeping up with Russian developments with su-27 family, often times at the expense of antagonizing Russia and her aviation industry.

When PLAN decided to pursue a carrier fighter Russian used su-27 derivatives on her own carrier. China could acquire prototype su-33s on the market to reverse engineer. China already had a large base of experiences with the basic su-27 airframe. Going with su-27 family for Chinese carriers is a no brainer.

 

[hlcc]

Mig-29K has smaller payload (carries less fuel and less weapons then J-15/Su-33) . When taking off from land , Flankers surely beat Mig-29K in this game . But , when taking off from carrier Mig-29K could carry around 3t (certified) from INS Vikramaditya (2xKh-35 , 2xR-73 , 1xfuel tank) . From Kuznetsov/Liaoning that would probably increase to 3.5 - 4 t . That is very close to theoretical MTOW .

On the other hand , by all accounts , J-15/Su-33 could carry similar payload (4-4.5 t) from Kuznetsov/Liaoning . Now , all you have is percentage game . Few big planes that you cannot utilize completely , or more smaller planes that you could utilize almost to the maximum .

Another thing to consider is that J-15 most likely weights less than Su-33 and have a significantly highly thrust engine than the original Su-33.
Compared to Su-27 or J-11A, J-11B is 700kg lighter due to the use of composites. Similarly Jh-7A is several kg lighter than Jh-7 due to the use of composites. For a weight sensitive ship borne fighter it's highly unlikely that SAIC didn't apply a similar weight reduction method.

On the engine front, J-15 will either end up with a WS-10 variant or one of the newer AL-31 variants (China already have a contract with Salyut for Al-31FN Series 3 which is basically Al-31 F M 1)

 

[Jeff Head]

I don't even understand why Mig29 should be an option for China, for the PLAN.

Really, IMHO, it's not. The PLAN made their choice for the J-15 and is moving forward with it. No looking back.

We should build larger and more capable, more well-designed carriers to accommodate the J15, not the other way-round. Sooner or later we're going to build larger carriers, by then, only large fighters like the J15 will be able to push that new Supercarrier to her full potential (achieve maximum power projection range, more ordinance carried, etc etc).

Another factor to consider is that, a carrier needs to serve for as long as half a century, it's the aircrafts that determines the power of the carrier, the the aircrafts get upgraded once in a while (classic example is the USS Midway). with a carrier designed to meet the needs of the J15, it can carry aircrafts smaller or up to the size of J15. This would give the new carrier aircraft designers a lot more room to push their limits. Seriously speaking, the J15/Su33 is almost as big as it get when it comes to carrier fighters.

Good points all...but as with anything, there are trade-offs. The PLAN looked at these and made their determination based on what thier requirements and plans are. And are now moving forward with it.

In any case it shouldn't be "difficult" or "frustrating" to operate. I believe Soviet designers weren't mad, they must have done their best although limited by the technologies available to them.

The Russians had the choice of Mig29K and Su33, and yet they chose Su33. This should be a very good proof that the Varyag class would be more powerful with Su33s, instead of Mig29Ks.

Well, not necessarily. They did not have the Mig-29K, they had earlier Mig-29s which were not nearly as capable. Now they do, and thay have made it clear that they are choosing the Mig-29K as their go forward aircraft and will retire the SU-33s. But their priorities have changed, their planned use of the carrier is changing...and the Mig-29K is something they make and can afford better than restarting the SU-33 production line...which would also have to be seriously upgraded.

But, back then, the Soviets had a different mission for the Kuznetsov and Varyag. That mission did not place emphasis on strike at sea and offense attack as much as on fleet air defense and air dominance. For that role, back when these decisions were being made, for the Soviets at the time, the SU-33 was a much better option for the Kuznetsov. It gave them a better air dominance fighter, with a larger A2A load out, longer range, etc. It also limited the number of aircraft they could carry...but that was not a s critical a factor, and strike at sea roles were not in play for the aircraft.

After all carriers and carrier programmes are long-term, they may well span half a century or even more than that. One really needs to look into the future and not just the current Liaoning/J15 combination. Albeit a fully operational aircraft carrier, her other important missions are research and training.

Make no mistake, the Liaoning is going to be fully operational and capable of providing the PRC with power projection and military tasks whenever called upon.

She will also serve as the intial carrier, thereby training up airwings for herself, and probably for the new carriers as they start being launched and going through trials and then work up.

The PRC chose the J-15 because of several things IMHO:

1) They make it...pretty much all of it, and do not have to depend on the Russians for it.
2) It met the requirements then need for both strike and air defense.
3) It fits into their overall go forward plan for carrier operations better.

HAving siad all of this, the Mig-29K is not a bad aircraft. When augmented by refueling aircraft, it is going to be a serious multi-role aircraft for whomever uses it (in this case Indian and now Russia, who has already announced that it will be their aircraft of choice in the future). it carriers a decent load and is capable of carrying very dangerous ASMs. With refueling, and particularly with a decent AEW&C capability off of the aircraft carrier...make no mistake, it will be a serious threat.

But, given the time frame, given where it is made, nad given the larger carrier plans the PLAN has, is not as good a fit for the PLAN as the J-15 is.

 

[bd popeye]

Originally Posted by xiabonan
Another thing is, why would someone assume that it is "difficult" to operate the J15s on the Liaoning? For one, the Liaoning, when designed as the Varyag, was designed with the mission to carry Su33s as her fighters. They should work together like a natural pair. Why would it be "difficult"?

..Because in my experience aboard five USN CVs large aircraft are more time consuming to handle. That is a fact. And the PLAN at this moment in time has very limited experience handling large aircraft aboard an aircraft carrier....This does not mean they cannot learn to operate larger numbers of J-15s.. It just won't be a cakewalk.

However as plawolf has pointed out the PLAN has a long term plan for it's CV programme.

Does any one have any idea or knowledge about how many J-15s are scheduled to be aboard CV-16? Thank you.

 

[chuck731]

Another thing is, why would someone assume that it is "difficult" to operate the J15s on the Liaoning? For one, the Liaoning, when designed as the Varyag, was designed with the mission to carry Su33s as her fighters. .

Not really. When Kuznetsov class was designed, both Mig-29 and Su-27 were in contention for its fighter complement.

The Russians had the choice of Mig29K and Su33, and yet they chose Su33. This should be a very good proof that the Varyag class would be more powerful with Su33s, instead of Mig29Ks..

Early Mig-29s had abysmal range totally unacceptable for much beyond point defence. In the cash crisis after the fall of Soviet Union Russia had to support one or the other. At the time Su-27 was the obvious choice as it already works. Mig-29 needed more work. So Russia effectively cut Mig-29 loose and focused its now much reduced military aircraft funds on the Su-27. Also, Sukhoi was much better connected with the new apparatchiks of the Yelsin era.

But the short comings of early Mig-29 has appearently been largely overcome by Mikoyan's own dime. What was true of Mig-29 when Su-33 was chosen is no longer quite so true. Also Russia is probably also waking up to the down side of Sukhoi monopoly on its fighter supply. So the Russian choice made 23 years ago may not be so strong an indicator of the relative merits of the two fighters today.

 

[bd popeye]

You know a thought just came to me...I served on three carriers that had smaller aircraft. the time to respot aircraft after a recovery was faster than on Nimitz or America. I think that has skewed my thinking.

What ever decision the PLAN makes reguarding it's air wing will be best for the PLAN CV programme.

 

[thunderchief]

But of course, as I've repeatedly said, there is no proof for whether Su-33 or any other fighter cannot or can take off from ski jumps with heavy payloads.

Official Russian data says all : Su-33 empty weight 19600 kg , normal takeoff weight , 26000 kg , MTOW from carrier 29940 kg , MTOW from land 33000 kg , normal landing weight maximum landing weight 26000 kg ,normal landing weight 22400 kg , maximum internal fuel 9500 kg . Russians never attempted takeoff with theoretical maximum weight , and even if they did , with maximum internal fuel Su-33 could carry only 4-6 AAMs . As for China , best picture I have seen was 4x500kg bombs + 2xPL-8 . Yes , I think J-15 could carry more , but don't expect anything over 4-4.5 t from Liaoning .
.

Why do you think mig-29K can suddenly take off with more payload from liaoning as opposed to the vikramditya?
What makes you say that the J-15 can only take off from liaoning with a payload of 4-4.5 tons?

Liaoning has at least 20m longer deck then Vikramaditya ,and by my rough calculation that would amount to at least 10km/h larger exit speed , which on the other hand means that you could have 500-1000 kg bigger payload .

As for J-15/Su-33 you have official Russian data ,and you have operational practice . We have seen what Mig-29K could do , but so far (as far as I know) no Su-33/J-15 did takeoff from carrier with more then 3t payload . I/m certain they could go over 4t , but not much beyond that .

If both Mig-29K and J-15 are taking off from the same ski jump under similar conditions, then their payload should be proportional to their thrust and MTOW, and thus, the Mig-29K isn't somehow magically more "weight efficient" than the J-15. That is to say, the thrust to weight ratios of the mig and the flanker are both relatively equal, and neither their structural design or aerodynamics give us any reason to believe the Mig-29K is more "weight efficient".

With new Sea Wasp engines T/W ratio on full afterburner is roughly equal . Mig-29K has slightly lower wing loading . Main advantage is difference between MTOW from carrier and MTOW on land . On Mig-29K this difference is very small for Kuznetsov/Liaoning . Unfortunately J-15/Su-33 could carry enormous payload , but not from these carriers . Therefore , currently they are underutilized . Su-33 is done deal . As for J-15 , new engines and longer deck would make miracles

 

[Totoro]

assuming j15 is as heavy as su33 (which it may not be), there's 11,5 tons of fuel and equipment/ordenance to 29940 kg figure. So fully laden with fuel, it still has 2 tons for pilot and his equipment (100ish kg), oil and gun ammo (50ish kg), 5 pylons (150ish kg), two antiship missiles (1300ish kg), one bvr missile (200ish kg) and two self defense missiles (200ish kg). So max flanker range with a very decent antishipping capability.

or does one want to reduce the range by 15% or so? From 1500-ish km radius (for a high flying mission) to around 1300-ish km? That's still quite decent radius. Flying high is a problem? Okay, then last 300 km of ingress can be sea skimming. So the plane is down to 1100 km radius. Still pretty darn okay. And due to less fuel carried, one can carry a bit more than a ton of ordenance. Enough for, say, eight 250 kg bombs and several AA missiles.

All those are pretty decent numbers. Not world-beating, but decent, even for this day and age. Certainly far, FAR away from what poor su33 (and more recently j15) have been ridiculed for by those who think for themselves during the last 20 years.

And that's all for basic, 20 year old al31f engines. m1 variants may easely be in the pipeline, or similarly powerful ws10 variants.

 

[Blitzo]

Thunderchief, where did you get the 29.9 ton, supposed carrier take off figure comes from? I'd be interested to see a source.
The sukhoi manufacturers website mentions only 33 tons as MTOW and nothing about a carrier specific weight.

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And I'd like to see the basis for your calculations on the Mig-29K taking off from liaoning versus vikramditya. For instance, is the liaoning's take off distance appreciably longer than vikramditya's?

Ultimately you don't address my point where I say that using the same ski jump and flight conditions, both Mig-29K and Su-33 should only be able to take off with a similar percentage of their MTOW. Unless there is substantial evidence to suggest that Mig-29Ks aerodynamics and/or structural design is inherently superior to the Su-33 in some way, this is the null hypothesis which should be held.