J-10 Thread IV

[ChineseToTheBone]

Chances are both the PAF and QEAF would've somewhat held back, and as always the RoE and parameters of the exercise might favour one side over the other. Then there is also the likelihood that the PAF knew how to fly their jets better than the QEAF.

Qatar was receiving their first Rafale jets back in 2019 with training starting years beforehand following signing the purchase agreement in 2015. Pakistan started to receive its first J-10 batch only in 2022 with training possibly starting in 2020 when their government signaled a response to India having purchased two squadrons of Rafale. It would be very impressive for sure during 2024 if the aviators from Pakistan were better trained with flying the J-10 versus the aviators from Qatar who had in general double the flying hours with the Rafale.

Most people (many within SFD included) thought the J-10 was approximately F-16 level even up to the mid 2010s. I honestly don't think armchair people ever thought of the J-10 as anything that was in the Rafale and Typhoon league until J-10CE was exported to Pakistan where it participated in exercises with Typhoon and Rafale. Then of course having J-10C shoot down multiple Rafales in May 2025.

American insight for this comparison was actually quite useful in this case for gauging aircraft capability, as their experienced naval aviators like Gonky and others have long said the Rafale was very similar in performance to a legacy Hornet. This means it was always in the same ballpark of performance as the Viper, which can frequently beat out the legacy Hornet in dissimilar air combat training within records of the Americans. Rafale performance was thus completely dependent on how new its electronics were and if they came in later than F3 variants that finally integrated the Meteor. Eurofighter kinematics is a different story of course, but with how its partner nations have lagged behind in upgrading its electronics, maybe not that different of a story.

 

[Blitzo]

Qatar was receiving their first Rafale jets back in 2019 with training starting years beforehand following signing the purchase agreement in 2015. Pakistan started to receive its first J-10 batch only in 2022 with training possibly starting in 2020 when their government signaled a response to India having purchased two squadrons of Rafale. It would be very impressive for sure during 2024 if the aviators from Pakistan were better trained with flying the J-10 versus the aviators from Qatar who had in general double the flying hours with the Rafale.

The 2024 exercise between the PAF and QEAF was against Eurofighter Typhoons, not Rafales.
The QEAF's Typhoons were first delivered in 2022 from memory.

 

[siegecrossbow]

J-10 performs low altitude maneuver at the famous Shuangyuewan beach (made famous by J-16 maneuvers years prior).

【海岸上空出现歼10C带弹机动-哔哩哔哩】

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[FishWings]

China's officials didn't help them understand J-10 much. When asked if J-20 (or J-XX at the time) was an answer to the Raptor, they said that it only aimed to get China a Typhoon/Rafale-like aircraft. So of course people thought J-10 was early F-16 level if that.

I think I know which 'official' you are talking about, based on the J-20 comments haha

 

[Deino]

CCTV has just straight-up said that the J-10CE completely steamrolled the Typhoon during exercises with a 9:0 (to no one's surprise, really).
View attachment 175117

Well, sorry for being so late to the party but the last four weeks have been more than heavy! Anyway, - and just as a pretext: I do not want to negate the result nor the J-10C's capabilities - but the problem is - no matter how official the message is - that all these statements from exercises, "Player A won X : 0 against B" are for the bin and sounds like an laymen‘ quartet play!

As long as we don't know the exercise scenario (Blue vs Red Force), the rules of engagements, the armament, accompanying types, etc., these statements are all simply worthless and without the possibility of verification you can tell everything.

As such even if as much as I understand these post - in fact even more astonishing since China is usually not bragging with such results - the point no-one with at least a bit of understanding can deny - as long as the points I raised are not known, it is almost worthless!

I had a most interesting chat with an Eurofighter-pilot from the German Luftwaffe, who participated an exercise with the IAF years ago and yes for sure, they had as expected "issues", but the point is, the rules of engagements, the number of aircraft participating, the weaponry, additional assets and even more so the airspace restricted for the exercise have been that limiting, so that the Typhoon has in fact almost no chance at all.

My point is, exercises are following an in advance pre-scripted environment and under strict terms of conditions, so that any generalising conclusions in the meaning Type A is better than Type B or AF 1 is better than AF 2 - and that's what the uninformed mass always does! - are simply useless!

Again, I do not want to deny these result and that does not mean I negate the J-10's qualities or the pilots performances, but the point is, they were favourable as a snapshot taken under the conditions just mentioned—conditions which, however, generally remain unknown to us. To truly be able to draw conclusions regarding which aircraft, armament, or air force—and whose tactics—are superior, one would simply have to give the participants free rein in their composition; yet this does not happen, and the parameters within which this limited picture was captured remain unknown to us.

Ergo... it is pointless!

 

[siegecrossbow]

Well, sorry for being so late to the party but the last four weeks have been more than heavy! Anyway, - and just as a pretext: I do not want to negate the result nor the J-10C's capabilities - but the problem is - no matter how official the message is - that all these statements from exercises, "Player A won X : 0 against B" are for the bin and sounds like an laymen‘ quartet play!

As long as we don't know the exercise scenario (Blue vs Red Force), the rules of engagements, the armament, accompanying types, etc., these statements are all simply worthless and without the possibility of verification you can tell everything.

As such even if as much as I understand these post - in fact even more astonishing since China is usually not bragging with such results - the point no-one with at least a bit of understanding can deny - as long as the points I raised are not known, it is almost worthless!

I had a most interesting chat with an Eurofighter-pilot from the German Luftwaffe, who participated an exercise with the IAF years ago and yes for sure, they had as expected "issues", but the point is, the rules of engagements, the number of aircraft participating, the weaponry, additional assets and even more so the airspace restricted for the exercise have been that limiting, so that the Typhoon has in fact almost no chance at all.

My point is, exercises are following an in advance pre-scripted environment and under strict terms of conditions, so that any generalising conclusions in the meaning Type A is better than Type B or AF 1 is better than AF 2 - and that's what the uninformed mass always does! - are simply useless!

Again, I do not want to deny these result and that does not mean I negate the J-10's qualities or the pilots performances, but the point is, they were favourable as a snapshot taken under the conditions just mentioned—conditions which, however, generally remain unknown to us. To truly be able to draw conclusions regarding which aircraft, armament, or air force—and whose tactics—are superior, one would simply have to give the participants free rein in their composition; yet this does not happen, and the parameters within which this limited picture was captured remain unknown to us.

Ergo... it is pointless!

I think that’s how most rational China watchers approach exercise results.

 

[sequ]

Well, sorry for being so late to the party but the last four weeks have been more than heavy! Anyway, - and just as a pretext: I do not want to negate the result nor the J-10C's capabilities - but the problem is - no matter how official the message is - that all these statements from exercises, "Player A won X : 0 against B" are for the bin and sounds like an laymen‘ quartet play!

As long as we don't know the exercise scenario (Blue vs Red Force), the rules of engagements, the armament, accompanying types, etc., these statements are all simply worthless and without the possibility of verification you can tell everything.

As such even if as much as I understand these post - in fact even more astonishing since China is usually not bragging with such results - the point no-one with at least a bit of understanding can deny - as long as the points I raised are not known, it is almost worthless!

I had a most interesting chat with an Eurofighter-pilot from the German Luftwaffe, who participated an exercise with the IAF years ago and yes for sure, they had as expected "issues", but the point is, the rules of engagements, the number of aircraft participating, the weaponry, additional assets and even more so the airspace restricted for the exercise have been that limiting, so that the Typhoon has in fact almost no chance at all.

My point is, exercises are following an in advance pre-scripted environment and under strict terms of conditions, so that any generalising conclusions in the meaning Type A is better than Type B or AF 1 is better than AF 2 - and that's what the uninformed mass always does! - are simply useless!

Again, I do not want to deny these result and that does not mean I negate the J-10's qualities or the pilots performances, but the point is, they were favourable as a snapshot taken under the conditions just mentioned—conditions which, however, generally remain unknown to us. To truly be able to draw conclusions regarding which aircraft, armament, or air force—and whose tactics—are superior, one would simply have to give the participants free rein in their composition; yet this does not happen, and the parameters within which this limited picture was captured remain unknown to us.

Ergo... it is pointless!

No need to doubt the claims about its performance in exercises after May last year.

 

[Deino]

I think that’s how most rational China watchers approach exercise results.

Agreed, but unfortunately if you look how this topic - like the unveiling of the J-35AE - is presented within the social media in certain "corners" I truly miss more of this rationale!

No need to doubt the claims about its performance in exercises after May last year.

Did I say anywhere in my post above I "doubt the claims about its performance in exercises after May last year"?

 

[Gloire_bb]

I had a most interesting chat with an Eurofighter-pilot from the German Luftwaffe, who participated an exercise with the IAF years ago and yes for sure, they had as expected "issues", but the point is, the rules of engagements, the number of aircraft participating, the weaponry, additional assets and even more so the airspace restricted for the exercise have been that limiting

To be fair, real combat is usually far more limiting than most exercises.

 

[Blitzo]

Agreed, but unfortunately if you look how this topic - like the unveiling of the J-35AE - is presented within the social media in certain "corners" I truly miss more of this rationale!

I think the problem is you're spending too much time on twitter lol

There is a reason why SDF and other more niche PLA watching communities have a bit more of a fence to keep othera out