J-10 Thread IV

[Inst]

Oh please! What a logic ... the J-10CE is currently the best they can get or do you suggest since they won't get J-20s in large numbers to overwhelm the IAF they should better leave it and surrender?

Yes, they will never get an air force comparable in size to the IAF but they also won't get this type of "qualitatively superior to every single Indian aircraft", what the PAF however can do is, to field a large enough fleet than any potential conflict with any possible opponent costs too much and here surely a larger number of J-10CE is anyway better than a lower.

When you're outnumbered, it's just easier to work with a qualitatively superior force than a force that's less qualitatively superior but more numerous.

The doctrine when you're outnumbered is that you do attacks of opportunity and do hit and runs. For this to actually work, however, you either need a terrain advantage (which doesn't come into play with aircraft) or something that can achieve a kill (i.e, get close enough to get a lethal hit), manage to survive the engagement (be agile enough to avoid counterattacks), and be able to escape. You attempt to create defeat-in-detail scenarios, wherein segments of InAF sorties get overrun by the PAKAF, then the PAKAF runs before the rest of the InAF deployed can come in for revenge.

In this situation, TVC helps because it allows the proposed J-10DE to extend the envelope of a successful attack (by allowing maneuvers not otherwise possible), it reduces the envelope within which the enemy can shoot down the J-10DE (evasive maneuvers without concern for recovery), and if the engine is higher thrust than the WS-10s already being used on the J-10s, it allows the J-10DE to escape faster.

@Deino

Actually, to put it another way, when you're outnumbered or otherwise outmatched, what you absolutely don't want to do is to fight a war of attrition. It's what the other side wants--they take casualties at a 2:1 or 1:2 ratio, but it doesn't matter at the end, because at the very end, you have no men / materiel left, while they still have an army.

What the outnumbered side wants to do, rather, is to fight a war of maneuver, wherein tactics, operations, etc, are designed to give you outsize kill-loss ratios while preserving your forces. TVC is better suited for this war of maneuver in that by increasing the level of superiority of your aircraft, you deal more damage and take less losses.

 

[LCR34]

When you're outnumbered, it's just easier to work with a qualitatively superior force than a force that's less qualitatively superior but more numerous.

The doctrine when you're outnumbered is that you do attacks of opportunity and do hit and runs. For this to actually work, however, you either need a terrain advantage (which doesn't come into play with aircraft) or something that can achieve a kill (i.e, get close enough to get a lethal hit), manage to survive the engagement (be agile enough to avoid counterattacks), and be able to escape. You attempt to create defeat-in-detail scenarios, wherein segments of InAF sorties get overrun by the PAKAF, then the PAKAF runs before the rest of the InAF deployed can come in for revenge.

In this situation, TVC helps because it allows the proposed J-10DE to extend the envelope of a successful attack (by allowing maneuvers not otherwise possible), it reduces the envelope within which the enemy can shoot down the J-10DE (evasive maneuvers without concern for recovery), and if the engine is higher thrust than the WS-10s already being used on the J-10s, it allows the J-10DE to escape faster.

@Deino

Actually, to put it another way, when you're outnumbered or otherwise outmatched, what you absolutely don't want to do is to fight a war of attrition. It's what the other side wants--they take casualties at a 2:1 or 1:2 ratio, but it doesn't matter at the end, because at the very end, you have no men / materiel left, while they still have an army.

What the outnumbered side wants to do, rather, is to fight a war of maneuver, wherein tactics, operations, etc, are designed to give you outsize kill-loss ratios while preserving your forces. TVC is better suited for this war of maneuver in that by increasing the level of superiority of your aircraft, you deal more damage and take less losses.

Ahem... You are looking at export version of an aircraft that has eaten Su35 for lunch in PLAAF service. I'd imagine J10 to feature conformal fuel tanks, better engine thrust and reliability, more composites, better avionics /sensors, better multirole option etc. Tvc is the last thing I'd imagine them add to J10.

 

[Inst]

Ahem... You are looking at export version of an aircraft that has eaten Su35 for lunch in PLAAF service. I'd imagine J10 to feature conformal fuel tanks, better engine thrust and reliability, more composites, better avionics /sensors, better multirole option etc. Tvc is the last thing I'd imagine them add to J10.

It's pretty trivial for the J-10 to beat the Su-35, given how bad the Russians are with radar and RCS reduction. All it has to do is to engage in a BVR fight, then the Su-35 gets locked onto first.

The reason TVC is interesting is because you already had the J-10B TVC demonstrator do post-stall maneuvers, so it's at a reasonable of maturity. Another factor might simply be, that the Indians have Su-30MKI with TVC, and the Pakistanis might want a TVC-capable aircraft to help with training against it.

 

[Deino]

@Inst STOP this nasty what-if and wishful thinking discussion on TVC-J-10DE for Pakistan!

Put this in the aerodynamics thread in the same way your constant wishes the J-20 should remove its tails are irrelevant in this thread!

 

[james smith esq]

@Inst STOP this nasty what-if and wishful thinking discussion on TVC-J-10DE for Pakistan!

Put this in the aerodynamics thread in the same way your constant wishes the J-20 should remove its tails are irrelevant in this thread!

Just wait ‘til somebody chastises you for wishing for your serial-numbers!

 

[Deino]

Should be the other way around now.

Vipers are the 3rd best platform in the PAF at this point. Even the Block IIIs outclass them.

Avionics wise maybe, but surely not in flight performance … but that should be continued in another thread.

 

[Jason_]

The argument that the Pakistanis would be better off with more, not fewer, J-10s is false because the PAKAF is always going to be outnumbered. It's a small and relatively backward nation of a couple hundred million vs 1.3-1.4 billion Indians.

It's better for the Pakistanis to have an aircraft that's qualitatively superior to every single Indian aircraft, so that the Pakistanis can always pick their battles and run when the Indians get sufficient numerical superiority.

Here is a list of things for the J-10CE that the PAF could spend money on that would be more useful than TVC:

1. Hardened air shelters
2. Air defenses to protect air bases from Stormshadow, Brahmos and Nirbhay
3. More flight hours for J-10 pilots
4. More pilots to enable a higher pilot to jet ratio
5. More spare parts to enable a higher readiness rate
6. EW pods
7. Anti-radiation missiles
8. Targeting pods
9. A high performance air to surface missile like the HD-1 seen in Zhuhai
10. Guided bombs that fit on the J-10’s belly hardpoints

 

[LCR34]

Here is a list of things for the J-10CE that the PAF could spend money on that would be more useful than TVC:

1. Hardened air shelters
2. Air defenses to protect air bases from Stormshadow, Brahmos and Nirbhay
3. More flight hours for J-10 pilots
4. More pilots to enable a higher pilot to jet ratio
5. More spare parts to enable a higher readiness rate
6. EW pods
7. Anti-radiation missiles
8. Targeting pods
9. A high performance air to surface missile like the HD-1 seen in Zhuhai
10. Guided bombs that fit on the J-10’s belly hardpoints

11. Quick integration of J-10CE into existing doctrine and system. (Datalink, comms etc)

 

[siegecrossbow]

Here is a list of things for the J-10CE that the PAF could spend money on that would be more useful than TVC:

1. Hardened air shelters
2. Air defenses to protect air bases from Stormshadow, Brahmos and Nirbhay
3. More flight hours for J-10 pilots
4. More pilots to enable a higher pilot to jet ratio
5. More spare parts to enable a higher readiness rate
6. EW pods
7. Anti-radiation missiles
8. Targeting pods
9. A high performance air to surface missile like the HD-1 seen in Zhuhai
10. Guided bombs that fit on the J-10’s belly hardpoints

This may depend on the MTBO for the WS-10 series.

 

[raja]

The argument that the Pakistanis would be better off with more, not fewer, J-10s is false because the PAKAF is always going to be outnumbered. It's a small and relatively backward nation of a couple hundred million vs 1.3-1.4 billion Indians.

It's better for the Pakistanis to have an aircraft that's qualitatively superior to every single Indian aircraft, so that the Pakistanis can always pick their battles and run when the Indians get sufficient numerical superiority.

Wow just wow, you should be in top ranks of IAF and making strategies for them. If we go by your logic if numerical advantage means so much what happens on 27th February 2019, cat got hold of 1.4billion tongues.
With this new addition Pakistan Air force is formidable force and will give IAF run for what its worth (not much). Since last 70 years not one inch of Western border was pushed by 1.4billion. So I would suggest keep your backward theory to yourself and keep justifying yourself with your 1.4bill numerical advantage.