J-10 Thread IV

[Inst]

I'm wondering if PAF will insist on TVC J-10s.

Right now, the J-10s in PAF service are equal to Su-30MKIs, in that they have comparable BVR capability (and J-10 with RCS reduction is stealthier). Against the Rafale, however, the J-10s are aerodynamically inferior (Rafale has more sophisticated planeform, with the same LERX Canard LERX Canard layout as the J-20, but the J-10s have better T/W), and the Rafale is better RCS optimized, with better EW than the J-10CEs. Adding TVC to the J-10CEs, however, mean that the J-10DEs can now give the Rafale a run for its money in WVR.

 

[Inst]

Even if WVR ultimately turns into a telefrag, the Rafales cost 100 million a piece, while the J-10s, even with TVC, are unlikely to cost more than 50 million a piece. Pakistan is never going to defeat the InAF, but when it comes to offsetting, the J-10s are excellent.

The only way the InAF can reliably defeat the J-10CEs would be using Rafale for BVR combat, but the Rafales are known to have weak radars compared to the Eurofighter or even the F-16s. The InAF would be attempting to use the Rafale's better ECM / RCS reduction to get in close to the J-10CEs, but once you add TVC to the package the Rafales are now suiciding a 100 million aircraft vs a 50 million aircraft.

And vs Su-30MKIs, the J-10 would have better radar (AESA vs PESA compensates for the Su-30MKI's larger aperture) and better stealth.

 

[LCR34]

I'm wondering if PAF will insist on TVC J-10s.

Right now, the J-10s in PAF service are equal to Su-30MKIs, in that they have comparable BVR capability (and J-10 with RCS reduction is stealthier). Against the Rafale, however, the J-10s are aerodynamically inferior (Rafale has more sophisticated planeform, with the same LERX Canard LERX Canard layout as the J-20, but the J-10s have better T/W), and the Rafale is better RCS optimized, with better EW than the J-10CEs. Adding TVC to the J-10CEs, however, mean that the J-10DEs can now give the Rafale a run for its money in WVR.

When you said Rafale has RCS advantages do you mean frontal or all aspects? Modern air War is no longer 1 v 1 fight. You must utilise AWACS, EW, ground early warning radar etc to your advantage. I don't get the obsessions of super maneuverability aka tvc. If you are a marksman, equipped with marksman rifle. You are well camouflaged, The target has been designated by spotter. You take the shot. You don't crept upclose for a knife fight.

 

[gelgoog]

The original Rafale radar was kind of crap. But all aircraft have had the radar replaced a long time ago.
I think ultimately Pakistan does not need to be concerned about it since their numbers are likely to be so low vs J-10 it doesn't really factor in.

 

[Jason_]

I'm wondering if PAF will insist on TVC J-10s.

Right now, the J-10s in PAF service are equal to Su-30MKIs, in that they have comparable BVR capability (and J-10 with RCS reduction is stealthier). Against the Rafale, however, the J-10s are aerodynamically inferior (Rafale has more sophisticated planeform, with the same LERX Canard LERX Canard layout as the J-20, but the J-10s have better T/W), and the Rafale is better RCS optimized, with better EW than the J-10CEs. Adding TVC to the J-10CEs, however, mean that the J-10DEs can now give the Rafale a run for its money in WVR.

J-10's BVR capability is far superior to Su-30MKI thanks to a 50km+ range gap between PL-15E and R-77-1.

RCS reduction on 4th gen non-stealth fighters is marketing nonsense. Once you add in external weapons any advantages/disadvantages disappear. The only measure that is actually useful is hiding engine fan blades, which is a massive RCS spike that also allows for easy NCTR. In this case both the J-10 and the Rafale have hidden engine blades, the J-10 through DSI and the Rafale through serpentine inlets.

Is there actual evidence that Rafale has superior EW? To me it seems like just marketing propaganda, with Dassault coming up with a catchy acronym (SPECTRA) while the designation for J-10's EW suite is completely unknown. However, in terms of high end EW capabilities, China has the J-16D with 4 phased array jammer pods plus wing tip pods. France has nothing comparable.

 

[Inst]

When you said Rafale has RCS advantages do you mean frontal or all aspects? Modern air War is no longer 1 v 1 fight. You must utilise AWACS, EW, ground early warning radar etc to your advantage. I don't get the obsessions of super maneuverability aka tvc. If you are a marksman, equipped with marksman rifle. You are well camouflaged, The target has been designated by spotter. You take the shot. You don't crept upclose for a knife fight.

Rafale has a minimum RCS of -20 dBSM, compared to the J-10C which has a minimum RCS around -8 or -10 dBsm. The J-10, however, has a 650-700mm class radar, while the Rafale has a 600mm class radar. This means the J-10's AESA, all other factors being equal, should be superior to that on the Rafale.

With RCS, however, 4.5th generation planes with externally-loaded missiles tend to ruin the RCS so the advantage of Rafale is less pronounced and the J-10C, with a larger radar aperture, can compete with the Rafale, although the Rafale will have an EW advantage.

The thing I'm more concerned with is a fight between J-10 and Rafale in WVR. The Rafale has a superior wing loading due to its design and can arguably have superior T/W to the J-10 depending on the engine employed and its specifications. Moreover, the Rafale has a J-20-like planeform, whereas the J-10 is relatively primitive (its only "juicy" parts are the anhedral-dihedral canard-wing loadout, which is also seen on Gripen).

It is questionable as to whether the J-10 can achieve an overwhelming superiority to the Rafale without TVC. But once you add TVC and WS-10X (i.e, 142-155kn) engines, the J-10 has no marked inferiority to the Rafale in any sphere, and it costs half as much as the Rafale to boot.

Game, set, match, goes to PakAF.

I'll also point out that if people are still in the market for F-16-likes, the J-10CE currently does not beat F-16V-types because the F-16V is strongly reengined. However, if you reengine the J-10CE for WS-10X with TVC, voila, the J-10CE is now superior to the F-16V.

What I really want to see is an upgraded J-10CE that can beat both the Rafale and F-16V BVR and WVR. I guess it's a bit of the fanboy in me, and perhaps the J-10CE is an obsolete platform, but the J-10CE deserves this upgrade.

===

All I really want is a J-10CE that's categorically superior to the Rafale. It's really not that hard to achieve, just upgrade the engine and add TVC. Surely this isn't too much to ask, is it? China can certainly make the best 4.5th generation fighter on the planet, beating both F-16V, Rafale, and Typhoon. It's just too cheap to upgrade the J-10CE properly for it.

 

[Jason_]

J-10's BVR capability is far superior to Su-30MKI thanks to a 50km+ range gap between PL-15E and R-77-1.

RCS reduction on 4th gen non-stealth fighters is marketing nonsense. Once you add in external weapons any advantages/disadvantages disappear. The only measure that is actually useful is hiding engine fan blades, which is a massive RCS spike that also allows for easy NCTR. In this case both the J-10 and the Rafale have hidden engine blades, the J-10 through DSI and the Rafale through serpentine inlets.

Is there actual evidence that Rafale has superior EW? To me it seems like just marketing propaganda, with Dassault coming up with a catchy acronym (SPECTRA) while the designation for J-10's EW suite is completely unknown. However, in terms of high end EW capabilities, China has the J-16D with 4 phased array jammer pods plus wing tip pods. France has nothing comparable.

I should add that even the KLJ-7A on the JF-17 Block III has ES/ECM capability. It is all but guaranteed that the J-10C radar does as well.

 

[gelgoog]

Given China's experience with the J-10 losing the competition in Thailand to the Gripen I doubt Chengdu didn't work on improving its ECM capabilities in these more recent versions. Gripen is supposed to have some of the best ECM capabilities in its generation.

 

[Jason_]

Given China's experience with the J-10 losing the competition in Thailand to the Gripen I doubt Chengdu didn't work on improving its ECM capabilities in these more recent versions. Gripen is supposed to have some of the best ECM capabilities in its generation.

The J-10 (of any variant) has never lost to Gripen in Thailand. You might be confusing it with the J-11A in the 2015 exercise.

 

[gelgoog]

You are correct. My mistake. But still China has had experience facing advanced Western ECM of that generation thanks to the exercises against Thailand. The 2017 exercise had J-10 in it.