J-10 Thread IV

[Inst]

It's currently speculation, but moving toward confirmed news. Remember that there were murmurs about a Chinese Su-35 acquisition for ages, so that forumers denied the possibility of a Chinese Su-35 acquisition until the contract was signed.

It's fairly reasonable, IMO: the J-10CEs are rough analogues to Rafales and outperform them in some categories (the weak radar of the Rafale, AESA or not, is legendary).

What I'm more interested in seeing is, should the J-10CEs be sold, is whether the Chinese will continue developing the J-10CE (as they have for Type 69s, 79s, etc) for export purposes. With the right upgrades, it's potentially a competitive platform with the F-16V and there's still demand for 4th generation fighters as the profusion of F-35s hasn't completed.

 

[broadsword]

It's currently speculation, but moving toward confirmed news. Remember that there were murmurs about a Chinese Su-35 acquisition for ages, so that forumers denied the possibility of a Chinese Su-35 acquisition until the contract was signed.

Has the J-10 rumor been reported in the Chinese news media like GT?

 

[xyqq]

A formation of at least three J-10 jets:



The scratches on the probe show the intensity of mid-air refueling exercises:

 

[siegecrossbow]

Party like it’s 1999.

 

[phrozenflame]

It's currently speculation, but moving toward confirmed news. Remember that there were murmurs about a Chinese Su-35 acquisition for ages, so that forumers denied the possibility of a Chinese Su-35 acquisition until the contract was signed.

It's fairly reasonable, IMO: the J-10CEs are rough analogues to Rafales and outperform them in some categories (the weak radar of the Rafale, AESA or not, is legendary).

What I'm more interested in seeing is, should the J-10CEs be sold, is whether the Chinese will continue developing the J-10CE (as they have for Type 69s, 79s, etc) for export purposes. With the right upgrades, it's potentially a competitive platform with the F-16V and there's still demand for 4th generation fighters as the profusion of F-35s hasn't completed.

First time I'm hearing J-10CE radar outperforms Rafale because of well known weaknesses of Rafale's radars. Can you elaborate more with sources?

 

[Gloire_bb]

because of well known weaknesses of Rafale's radars.

Rafale radar is simply very small for a plane this large.
Iirc it's actually smaller than Gripen Es(and probably FC-1s as well).

 

[Inst]

Both J-10 and Rafale are rumored to have 0.1 or 0.5 m^2 RCS. The Rafale is claimed to have 0.01 m^2 at some angles and load conditions. The J-10 MIGHT be able to beat the Rafale is a pure BVR fight, but they're both of approximately the same generation so the fight will likely not be decided BVR.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Rafale radar is simply very small for a plane this large.
Iirc it's actually smaller than Gripen Es(and probably FC-1s as well).

I don't think that radar size is the sole metric for calculating radar effectiveness even though it is one of the factors. Most people focus on just the antenna aspect of the radar when backend stuff like signal processing is also vitally important for radar performance. For instance, Su-30MKI rocks a PESA antenna but rocks the same processor as the MKK/MK2, which limits its effectiveness.

Both J-10 and Rafale are rumored to have 0.1 or 0.5 m^2 RCS. The Rafale is claimed to have 0.01 m^2 at some angles and load conditions. The J-10 MIGHT be able to beat the Rafale is a pure BVR fight, but they're both of approximately the same generation so the fight will likely not be decided BVR.

RCS on a non-stealth fighter balloons considerably when external load such as missiles, fuel tanks, and targetting/EW pods are added.

 

[ougoah]

Rafale's AESA is certainly more questionable than J-10C's and F-16Vs (going with similar class fighters). The Typhoon's CAPTOR E and CAESA is supposedly "ready" but is yet to be put into service anywhere and actually evaluated by user. With most Typhoon airforces either taking delivery of F-35 or developing their own 5th/5.5th gen fighters, I doubt they would bother until MLU time for their existing Typhoon tranches.

Why Rafale's AESA is more questionable. Simply because it is France's first airborne AESA development and I think the first AESA developed in France. It doesn't mean it is no good, could be much better but honestly first attempts are often going to be somewhat less effective and capable (see Japanese J/APG-1) compared to let's say a Chinese or American one where both have been developing many generations of ship borne, missile warning, early warning, space based, AWACS/ AEWC, and fighter AESAs and all of them must work well under duress against each others. At least that would be the aim. With French AESA and radar industry overall, they don't have as much experience, funding, or necessity for this. This isn't to degrade them or say it's no good, but let's be real here.

@Inst J-10C is unlikely to be as capable as the F-16V. The F-16V is more modern (better electronics) and has a superior engine to both the WS-10A/x and AL-31FN series. There is no comparison between J-10C and F-16V. The latter is probably better in every known way. Europe is moving to F-35 or their own 5th gen programs if not exploring more technology that will fit more accordingly with the next generation. Rafale and Typhoon will receive MLU in future and their makers will try to sell them to whoever can and is allowed to buy. This doesn't make them super jets like some customers may want to pretend. The J-10C can't match the Rafale's range or payload though and the Rafale's Meteor is going to be a real pain in the ass for PLAAF if they are allowed to get airborne.

 

[Gloire_bb]

I don't think that radar size is the sole metric for calculating radar effectiveness even though it is one of the factors.

But it clearly shows design priorities, and gives a reasonable reference point for radars built on comparable tech level.
For Dassault, placing a comprehensive optical suite&giving it the best possible angles was clearly important enough to move radar down that tiny nose.
While France did a nice job updating RBE(hush hush Eurofighter nations), ultimately its [BVR] potential is limited.