J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

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pissybits

Junior Member
We never heard of such thing. Then what is the problem of Chines Gas turbine I believe it is more to do with reliability . Now what cause the reliability problem. Reliability is inversely proportional to the number of components. the more component the less reliable is the engine.

The number of component is the function of design and certain extend components supplier. Now here China has problem since there is no viable commercial airplane manufacturer in China .She has to developed the supplier base(ecosystem) from the scratch . The supplier in turn won't put too much effort and money in design research and development if they can't divide the cost of R&D over large number of product.
Unlike in US or Europe were the components suppliers are first class and have developed their own R&D over long time

In another thing the supplier ecosystem and sophistication in China turbine supplier is not developed yet .Therefore is is imperative to developed the commercial aircraft manufacturing in China because it feed to the military side.

this is pretty much what i said... chinese aviation sector has the inherent weaknesses of being state managed, only recently semi-privatized. private firms in the west have built up intellectual capital and experience from being on market for decades... also china most certainly lags behind in materials science compared to the west, maybe they can achieve an improvement over the imported russian turbofans but they are certainly behind the cutting edge. -i would also like to bring up another likely obstacle to chinese efforts to built modern engines among other things: software.

now about your argument: first you claimed that china does not have quality control issues when it comes to engine parts, but then you refute yourself and talk about an immature supplier chain that can be unreliable in the quality of their products, please make your point more concise. furthermore i think your argument could be made better with less tech trivia and jargon that isn't immediately relevant. simply too much stuff to look through!
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
this is pretty much what i said... chinese aviation sector has the inherent weaknesses of being state managed, only recently semi-privatized. private firms in the west have built up intellectual capital and experience from being on market for decades... also china most certainly lags behind in materials science compared to the west, maybe they can achieve an improvement over the imported russian turbofans but they are certainly behind the cutting edge. -i would also like to bring up another likely obstacle to chinese efforts to built modern engines among other things: software.

now about your argument: first you claimed that china does not have quality control issues when it comes to engine parts, but then you refute yourself and talk about an immature supplier chain that can be unreliable in the quality of their products, please make your point more concise. furthermore i think your argument could be made better with less tech trivia and jargon that isn't immediately relevant. simply too much stuff to look through!

It is not so simple as to blame the reliability to quality control. You have to understand how High tech machinery is built.GE, Rolls Royce and Snecma or AVIC are what they called system integrator. meaning they don't manufacture all the components themselves .Some critical components they do built it themselves.Then they assembled the components and added the software,control and electrical system.

China follow this model since the the economic reform in late 80's.AVIC or their predecessor stop being the vertical integral company long time ago So they have to depend for some of their component to the supplier. They probably help set up this component supplier or even spin it out from the own factory

But they have to live on their own device after the split. In US and Europe this people have grant to do research and development. They were underwrite by the military when the military budget were fat. Then they applied what they learn in military sector to commercial aviation or industrial sector to generate income .Which allow them to further their own R&D and win military contract. So it goes back and forth. In other word they become the best in their chosen field or component thru further research

So it is structural problem and not as simple as quality control. But in China the civilian aviation is just started because for a long time China were poor country No one fly in the air . It is not too long ago that the prevalent mode of transportation is bicycle let alone traveling by air.

So what I am saying the system integrator like AVIC has no problem with quality control since they were supplier to the like of GE and Snecma and has to meet the strict requirement of those company.

But the smaller company or component supplier is not so lucky they don't have the budget or grant like AVIC. They have to live on their own device. But now that China civilian aviation start kicking and they are designated as pillar industry and the promise of opening the military sector to civilian I expect better component supplier in the future.
china is not short of talent or capital

I don't bring those terminology for nothing. In order to evaluate the mode of failure you have to know those terminology and cause of turbine failure.If material is the cause it will be catastrophic as the article show it .But we have no report of catastrophic failure so far

Software is the least of Chinese problem there are tremendous software industry in China growing by 30% a year and the best use of software is in Telecommunication industry and Huawei already eclipse Ericson as the largest Communication infrastructure provider. The proof in the pudding is they are as good as their counter part in the west when it come to hacking and cyberwarfare
 
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pissybits

Junior Member
China follow this model since the the economic reform in late 80's.AVIC or their predecessor stop being the vertical integral company long time ago So they have to depend for some of their component to the supplier. They probably help set up this component supplier or even spin it out from the own factory

But they have to live on their own device after the split. In US and Europe this people have grant to do research and development. They were underwrite by the military when the military budget were fat. Then they applied what they learn in military sector to commercial aviation or industrial sector to generate income .Which allow them to further their own R&D and win military contract. So it goes back and forth. In other word they become the best in their chosen field or component thru further research

So it is structural problem and not as simple as quality control. But in China the civilian aviation is just started because for a long time China were poor country No one fly in the air . It is not too long ago that the prevalent mode of transportation is bicycle let alone traveling by air.

So what I am saying the system integrator like AVIC has no problem with quality control since they were supplier to the like of GE and Snecma and has to meet the strict requirement of those company.

But the smaller company or component supplier is not so lucky they don't have the budget or grant like AVIC. They have to live on their own device. But now that China civilian aviation start kicking and they are designated as pillar industry and the promise of opening the military sector to civilian I expect better component supplier in the future.
china is not short of talent or capital

Software is the least of Chinese problem there are tremendous software industry in China growing by 30% a year and the best use of software is in Telecommunication industry and Huawei already eclipse Ericson as the largest Communication infrastructure provider. The proof in the pudding is they are as good as their counter part in the west when it come to hacking and cyberwarfare

i understand and agree with your breakdown of the structural problems with china's aviation sector. it is pretty much what i was saying. i can also see that you do not disagree that western firms have more developed intellectual capital from market experience. i believe that our disagreement is only a semantic one. (reliability, quality control) as it is quality control issues, either with avic or its suppliers, that cause reliability problems.

however i dont agree with your using chinese developments in telecom and cyberwarfare to justify that they must also be up to date on a very specific piece of avionic software. if that were true, you wouldn't see news like this:

m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/1753292
 

hardware

Banned Idiot
is the article about the chinese R and D on air cool turbine blade (posted hedrick_2000) connected to the recent report from chinese academy of science that jet engine with 15:1 ratio was within reach of Chinese jet engine manufacturer?
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Let's not forget the human element as well. Everything you guys said has been spot on I think however as China (as a country) and her population becomes more educated and wealthier the 'life value' of her citizens increases and improvement in quality will take slowly take precedence over quantity. With more advanced weaponry it means more training for pilots etc. Modern pilots become a LOT more valuable then his or her brethen even just a generation ago.. not just from a cost factor but from a societal point of view.

As China slowly goes from poor third world to emerging and likely to first world in the coming decades, regardless of politics the individual citizen will become more valuable and more aware. Even more so for military personnel. The days of the military throwing hundreds of thousands of soldiers/people into a hail of bullets as some sort of horde strategy is coming to an end as each individual soldier becomes more and more important in the military. not just in the eyes of the generals and admirals but to society as well.

As it applies to our conversation it goes hand in hand with quality of equipment.. i.e aircraft engines, ship design etc. Quality of engine is more than just for strategic purposes it's literally life and death for the pilots too. If pilots are easily replaced and has little value other than to perform specific mission than the quality of engines are not as important in terms of reliability.

If you have 100 pilots with little 'life' value and easily 'expendable', it's better to have 100 crap engines with short lifespan than to have 5 good reliable engines that goes on forever if all you have are 5 pilots than you've spent million of dollars on in training etc and are actually considered fellow humans as oppose to just merely a disposable resource.

If you ask me I think that is the biggest shift in China right now in their military transformation. They still have far to go but you can see the transitioning. Everything from improving quality of equipment to things like better berthing compartments in ships etc for sailors.
 

A.Man

Major
Still don't have J-10B's info. These photos were taken earlier of the year. They are looked like official photos.

e509.jpg


squ1.jpg


qzc6.jpg


ss9a.jpg
 

SteelBird

Colonel
Just curious, if they extend the wing roots (in a manner of LERX) forward to the position of air intake, can they eliminate canards?
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
No. LERX generates no controllable pitch moment for maneuvering the aircraft.



But as far as I know EADS tested one Eurofighter Typhoon with a larger LERX-like wing root reaching Forward until the intake's lip ... reportedly with some good results.

Deino
 

Quickie

Colonel
But as far as I know EADS tested one Eurofighter Typhoon with a larger LERX-like wing root reaching Forward until the intake's lip ... reportedly with some good results.

Deino

With the canards removed? Even if this is the case, it's only viable for the Typhoon because of its larger wing area and therefore more effective elevons. Removing the canards from the J-20 is like removing the horizontal stabilizers/elevators from the F-22.

Edit: Just realized this is the J-10 thread. So, the above analogy should be between the J-10 and Flankers or F-16.
 
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