J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
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pilot-amateur welcome to SDF.

You need to make a contribution to the discussion other than 'interesting or good forum'. Read the forum rules..I've deleted all you post except this one because they add nothing to the discussion.

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bd popeye super moderator
 

Red___Sword

Junior Member
When Russian sources maybe good at any other matters of military, I simply passes when any "intel" quoted by Russian sources talking about anything China. - You know, sometimes, even Japanese media reporting anything China, they maybe exaggerate it, but they at least do not make up things.

Maybe some senior member here didn't get it - The whole idea of developing J-10 (in modern days) is to not to rely on Russia everytime, on everything. By the news of during simulation fight J-10 beats Chinese bought Su-27 EVERYTIME - it dose live to the expectation.
 

Red Moon

Junior Member
Ah challenge you haven't changed much since your holiday have you :-/

Was strategypage ever considered reliable for chinese military developments? It's existed since the 80's I think. I wonder if it ever got anything right on the PLA during its 30 year history.
I think he did call it tragedy page.:)
 

challenge

Banned Idiot
China's First Master Designer
July 5, 2011: After years of trying to keep it a secret, China has confirmed that one of their aircraft engineers, Yang Wei, is actually one of those extraordinary designers who produces one successful design after another. Born in 1963, he graduated from college at age 19 and finished graduate school three years later. He soon went to work at the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute, and a decade later was appointed director. So far, he has designed a working fly-by-wire system, as well as the JF-17, J-10B and J-20. He did not design the original J-10, but did design the most successful version, the J-10B, and provided important upgrades for other J-10 models. The new J-20 (a stealth design that is still in development) is less of a surprise now that it's known the Chinese have a genuine ace designer working on it.
Ace aircraft designers are rare, and those that do show up tend to create a number of exceptional designs during a few decades (or much less, if there's a war going on). For example, Russian designer Mikhail Simonov recently died (at age 81). He was responsible for the Su-24 bomber, the Su-25 ground attack plane and the Su-27 fighter. Starting during World War II, for example, one American designer (who was trained in Germany), Edgar Schmued, designed the P-51, followed by the F-86 and F-100 after the war. In Germany, Willie Messerschmitt designed the Me-109, Me-110 and the first jet fighter (Me-262) plus several others during World War II, and a few after the war.

In China, Yang Wei appears to be the first designer in this tradition. He had nothing to do with the original J-10, the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. That appears to explain the many problems this aircraft has had. The J-10 was an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful. Work on the J-10 began over twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that would be comparable to the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16. But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were continued problems, and it wasn't until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller flaws. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J-10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia. The J-10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J-10 has only one engine. Yang Wei improved the J-10 considerably with his J-10B version.

But it was the JF-17 (also known as FC-1) that made Yang Mei's reputation. The JF-17 was developed by China in cooperation with Pakistan, which originally only wanted to buy 150 of them. All this came about because Pakistan could not get modern fighters from anyone else, and turned to China. At the time, China had nothing comparable to the early model F-16s Pakistan already had. The 13 ton JF-17 is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. The JF-17 is considered the equal to earlier versions of the F-16, but only 80 percent as effective as more recent F16 models. The JF-17 design is based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33. Originally, Pakistan wanted Western electronics in the JF-17, but because of the risk of Chinese technology theft, and pressure from the United States (who did not want China to steal more Western aviation electronics), the JF-17 uses Chinese and Pakistani electronics.

The JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and uses radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of nearly 18,000 meters (55,000 feet). China has not yet decided on whether it will use the FC-1/JF-17 itself. This is apparently because China believes its own J-10 and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped, but that's another matter.

And then there the impressive new Chinese fighter, the J-20, which made its first flight earlier this year. While the J-20 looks like the American F-22 when viewed head on, it's overall shape, weight and engine power is closer to the American F-15C. In other words, it's about 20 meters (62 feet) long, with a wing span of 13.3 meters (42 feet). J-20 has about the same wing area as the F-15C, which is about 25 percent less than the F-22 (which is a few percent larger than the F-15 in terms of length and wingspan). Worse, for the J-20, is the fact that it's engine power is about the same as the F-15C, while the F-22 has 65 percent more power. With the afterburner turned on, the J-20 has more power than the F-15C, and nearly as much as the F-22. But because the afterburner consumes so much fuel, you can't use it more than a few minutes at a time. The F-22 is still one of only three aircraft (in service) that can supercruise (go faster than the speed of sound without using the afterburner.) In addition to the F-22, the Eurofighter and the Gripen can also supercruise.

The J-20 has some stealthiness when it's coming at you head on. But from any other aspect, the J-20 will light up the radar screen. For this reason, the J-20 is seen as a developmental aircraft, not the prototype of a new model headed for mass production. As such, it is only the fifth stealth fighter to fly, the others being the U.S. F-22 and F-35, plus the Russian T-50 and I.42. The older U.S. F-117 was actually a light bomber, and the B-2 was obviously a heavy bomber. Based on recent Chinese warplane development projects (J-10 in particular), the J-20 has a long development road ahead of it, and will likely change size and shape before it reaches the production design.

While the shape of the J-20 confers a degree of stealthiness (invisibility to radar), even more electronic invisibility comes from special materials covering the aircraft. It's not known how far along the Chinese are in creating, or stealing, these materials. Same with engines. The current J-20 engines are sufficient for early flight tests, but not capable of providing the supercruise, something that would be essential for the J-20. That's because China would most likely use the aircraft singly, or in small groups, to seek out and attack American carriers. As for F-22 class engines, that is being worked on. Two years ago, China announced it was developing the WS-15 engine, a more powerful beast well suited for the J-20. No date was given as to when the WS-15 would be available for use, or whether it would have the same vectoring (ability to move the hot jet exhaust in different directions in order to make the fighter more maneuverable) the F-22 uses.

For the J-20 to be a superior fighter, it would need electronics (including radars and defense systems) on a par with the F-35 and F-22. So far, the Chinese have not caught up with stuff used by current American fighters. But the gap is being closed faster than it was during the Cold War and the Russians were creating, or stealing, their way to military tech equivalence with the West.

Work on the J-20 began in the late 1990s, and the Chinese knew that it could be 25 years or more before they had a competitive stealth fighter-bomber. Development apparently moved a lot faster once Yang Wei got involved. The J-20 is being developed at the Chengdu Aircraft Company (CAC), which builds the J-10 and JF-17. Located in central China, CAC was known to be working on the J-20, and Yang Wei is director of the design institute.

Yang Wei also appears to be a master at adapting stolen or licensed foreign technology to new designs. Both the FC-17 and J-20 are known to have used a lot of foreign technology. Just having access to that stuff does not guarantee success (as shown with the J-10). But if you are really good, as Yang Wei is, you can make the stolen tech into something as good, or better, than it was originally.

The J-20 is an attempt to develop some kind of 5th generation aircraft, complete with stealth. The only other competitor in this area is Russia, where fifth generation fighter developments were halted when the Soviet Union disintegrated in 1991. Actually, all development work on new fighters, by everyone, slowed down in the 1990s. But work on the F-22, F-35, Eurofighter and Rafale continued, and those aircraft became, in roughly that order, the most advanced fighter aircraft available today. MiG resumed work on the I.42 in the 1990s, but had to stop after a few years because of a lack of money. Sukhoi has never stopped working on its T-50, funded by much higher sales of its Su-27/30 fighters. This fifth generation may come to be called the "last generation," after they are replaced by the second generation of pilotless combat aircraft (counting armed Predators and the like as the first). It's not known if Yang Wei is working on combat UAVs.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Is this another article from strategypage?

I have issues with a few points -- The JF-17/Mig-33 part (saying the former was based on the latter, for example)
And also this:

Yang Wei also appears to be a master at adapting stolen or licensed foreign technology to new designs. Both the FC-17 and J-20 are known to have used a lot of foreign technology. Just having access to that stuff does not guarantee success (as shown with the J-10). But if you are really good, as Yang Wei is, you can make the stolen tech into something as good, or better, than it was originally.

Challenge, now I'm not saying that "I only want good news, no bad news" -- so please don't use that phrase here. But the above paragraph effectively ruins all credibility of the article and author.
I'll continue rebutting a few points here and there though, just for lulz.

And then there the impressive new Chinese fighter, the J-20, which made its first flight earlier this year. While the J-20 looks like the American F-22 when viewed head on, it's overall shape, weight and engine power is closer to the American F-15C. In other words, it's about 20 meters (62 feet) long, with a wing span of 13.3 meters (42 feet). J-20 has about the same wing area as the F-15C, which is about 25 percent less than the F-22 (which is a few percent larger than the F-15 in terms of length and wingspan). Worse, for the J-20, is the fact that it's engine power is about the same as the F-15C, while the F-22 has 65 percent more power. With the afterburner turned on, the J-20 has more power than the F-15C, and nearly as much as the F-22. But because the afterburner consumes so much fuel, you can't use it more than a few minutes at a time. The F-22 is still one of only three aircraft (in service) that can supercruise (go faster than the speed of sound without using the afterburner.) In addition to the F-22, the Eurofighter and the Gripen can also supercruise.

We don't have any safe numbers on the J-20s wing area, they are basing this paragraph without the intended engine for the production version which is definitely meant to have the aircraft supercruise. EF and Gripen can not supercruise with effective payloads anyhow so adding that they also "have" this capability doesn't add anything.

The J-20 has some stealthiness when it's coming at you head on. But from any other aspect, the J-20 will light up the radar screen. For this reason, the J-20 is seen as a developmental aircraft, not the prototype of a new model headed for mass production.

I think the author needs to stop speaking in absolutes here.
From the forward aspect the J-20 is most stealthy yes, but from the top, sides and underside it is not too shabby either, if not comparable in shaping to the F-22. It is only the far aft WRT the nozzles that it will doom the aircraft to potentially "light up on the radar screen".

Besides, if the J-20's terrible stealth shaping means it is a "developmental aircraft" then what's PAK FA :p

As such, it is only the fifth stealth fighter to fly, the others being the U.S. F-22 and F-35, plus the Russian T-50 and I.42. The older U.S. F-117 was actually a light bomber, and the B-2 was obviously a heavy bomber. Based on recent Chinese warplane development projects (J-10 in particular), the J-20 has a long development road ahead of it, and will likely change size and shape before it reaches the production design.

I feel the author is kind of trying to convince himself that the emergence of the J-20 is nothing to be worried about here, and that it is nothing special while also comforting himself that a supposed long and arduous development prcoess (ATF/JSF anyone?) is ahead of it.
Of course everything we've heard so far gives IOC 2017-2019 with the J-20 having 4S... so yeah.

While the shape of the J-20 confers a degree of stealthiness (invisibility to radar), even more electronic invisibility comes from special materials covering the aircraft. It's not known how far along the Chinese are in creating, or stealing, these materials.

Of course no one knows how well the industry's coping with RAM but the implication that they would be lagging in this area, and others simply because they are chinese is a massive stereotype.
I'll ignore the "stealing" cheap shot.

Same with engines. The current J-20 engines are sufficient for early flight tests, but not capable of providing the supercruise, something that would be essential for the J-20. That's because China would most likely use the aircraft singly, or in small groups, to seek out and attack American carriers. As for F-22 class engines, that is being worked on. Two years ago, China announced it was developing the WS-15 engine, a more powerful beast well suited for the J-20. No date was given as to when the WS-15 would be available for use, or whether it would have the same vectoring (ability to move the hot jet exhaust in different directions in order to make the fighter more maneuverable) the F-22 uses.

WS-15 will have TVC.
We've been getting readiness dates of around 2015 a few years back.
And wtf an aircraft like J-20 will have very little use against US carriers. At most they can carry a few glide bombs optimized for maritime strike requiring J-20 to get within a few hundred kms of the CVBG at least. And even if they are successful in releasing their payload and escaping the CVBG unharmed, what will a few glide bombs do against a 100k ton CVN?

For the J-20 to be a superior fighter, it would need electronics (including radars and defense systems) on a par with the F-35 and F-22. So far, the Chinese have not caught up with stuff used by current American fighters. But the gap is being closed faster than it was during the Cold War and the Russians were creating, or stealing, their way to military tech equivalence with the West.

Avionics are the strong point of the chinese aerospace industry. PLA has at least six KJ-200 in service and four KJ-2000s in service, all AESA and more KJ-200s under production as a recent picture shows. There was that strategycenter article a year or so back on the chinese avionics strength too. We've seen multiple examples of optics and indigenous IRST/FLIR on J-11B/J-10B. I believe there was an "DAS-like" system for the JF-17 offered as well but that eludes me. EW has also been heavily invested in and the PLA seems to have reaped rewards, given the rumoured owning of VPAF Su-30s by J-10s with the latter having EW support
If they're going to use avionics as an avenue of attack for J-20s inferiority I think they should choose another.

Work on the J-20 began in the late 1990s, and the Chinese knew that it could be 25 years or more before they had a competitive stealth fighter-bomber. Development apparently moved a lot faster once Yang Wei got involved. The J-20 is being developed at the Chengdu Aircraft Company (CAC), which builds the J-10 and JF-17. Located in central China, CAC was known to be working on the J-20, and Yang Wei is director of the design institute.

I'd love to know how they got this info.

------

So all in all this is another quality strategypage article (I'm assuming?).
For any new members fresh to the J-20 who have read this article, I give warning of its significant percentage of BS.
For challenge -- please stop being a challenge and posting articles from strategypage/other disputable sources. Or at least if you do, post your own opinions with it so we can respond to you instead of the entire article =__="
(for example, if you said "haha this article is completely bs and we shouldn't believe a word of it" then I wouldn't have had a need for this reply)

Anyway that's fifteen minutes of my life I'll never get back but it'll be worth it if we don't have to put up with more works of art like the above =^.^=
 
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no_name

Colonel
J-10 during an emergency landing.

j10h.jpg
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
And then there the impressive new Chinese fighter, the J-20, which made its first flight earlier this year. While the J-20 looks like the American F-22 when viewed head on, it's overall shape, weight and engine power is closer to the American F-15C. In other words, it's about 20 meters (62 feet) long, with a wing span of 13.3 meters (42 feet). J-20 has about the same wing area as the F-15C, which is about 25 percent less than the F-22 (which is a few percent larger than the F-15 in terms of length and wingspan). Worse, for the J-20, is the fact that it's engine power is about the same as the F-15C, while the F-22 has 65 percent more power. With the afterburner turned on, the J-20 has more power than the F-15C, and nearly as much as the F-22. But because the afterburner consumes so much fuel, you can't use it more than a few minutes at a time. The F-22 is still one of only three aircraft (in service) that can supercruise (go faster than the speed of sound without using the afterburner.) In addition to the F-22, the Eurofighter and the Gripen can also supercruise.
Where are they even getting this information from. If they have information on the J-20's turbofan that we don't have, I want to know.
 

tanlixiang28776

Junior Member
According to this article by an Employee from NRIET the Active Phased Array for the J 10B has 1152 Transmit and receive modules.

It has also already been tested in a airborne aircraft.

j10bradar.jpg


2713597603460e57e90daca.gif


27135976e80062f76c39146.gif


27135976c43636fece03a67.gif


2713597638e303b1fe431fe.gif
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Nice -- the number of TR modules would compare favourably with the F-16E's APG-80 which also has ~1000.
 
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