J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

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Blitzo

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Don't get me wrong. I am not saying Gripen is a better fighter than J-10. I am saying Chinese designs often place flight performance higher priority than weapons. As a air superiority fighter, J-10's current (4M+2S+3 fuel tanks) configuration is fine, and Chinese may want to stick to JH-7 and J-11 for striking role. However, if J-10 wants an export market, it is unavoidable that the customers want a true multi-role fighter. Then the weapon load and flexibility get much more important.

In that case I have no disagreement.
But the current aircraft can still be called a "true" multi role fighter. The current family of Chinese PGMs I imagine should all be to fit on the fuselage hardpoints, giving a minimum of two extra ~250kg bombs and a maximum of four. Depending on external fuel tanks, CFTs and additional MRAAM carriage that number can be substantially increased.

And again I want to mention the impressive loadouts on the Gripen NG and some other under development/export aircraft would not be very practical. In this case the J-10 is lacking a little in that it doesn't look as awesome as say the F-15E or NG, Typhoon.
 

johnqh

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In that case I have no disagreement.
But the current aircraft can still be called a "true" multi role fighter. The current family of Chinese PGMs I imagine should all be to fit on the fuselage hardpoints, giving a minimum of two extra ~250kg bombs and a maximum of four. Depending on external fuel tanks, CFTs and additional MRAAM carriage that number can be substantially increased.

And again I want to mention the impressive loadouts on the Gripen NG and some other under development/export aircraft would not be very practical. In this case the J-10 is lacking a little in that it doesn't look as awesome as say the F-15E or NG, Typhoon.

There is no evidence that J-10A and B can carry any ground attacking weapons than dumb bombs and rockets. It will require a lot of programming and testing, which may take years, or even a decade. Look at Typhoon and Rafale.
 

Blitzo

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There is no evidence that J-10A and B can carry any ground attacking weapons than dumb bombs and rockets. It will require a lot of programming and testing, which may take years, or even a decade. Look at Typhoon and Rafale.

By "current aircrraft" I meant the J-10A (and B) as they are without any major physical changes, which I thought was the context of the previous discussion.
I believe J-10 can carry LT-2, at the minimum. There was that photo a while back of J-10 in a hangar with LT-2 and a variety of other weapons around it. Wasn't sure if it was part of a display but it didn't look like it.
Possibly LS-6 as well, with the models CAC has shown the last few years.

But the lack of photos of J-10 carrying PGMs do lead to these kind of conclusions that they are not precision strike capable. Then again the photos we get of them usually only feature fuel tanks anyway.
 

johnqh

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It is way more complicated to add weapon to a fighter than you think.

You know the story about j-10 and pl12/sd10, right? Sd10 was certified first on other fighter(j-8ii?), but failed on j10. It took a long time to figure out what was wrong.

It is not simply "it should fit". You have to consider center of gravity, aerodynamic impact, physical connection and load etc. Didn't LCA have problems dropping external fuel tanks because it changes center of gravity and the fighter cannot handle it?(something like that, may remembered wrong, not sure if it was fixed)

Don't believe anything unless you see photos.

Edit: just googled. LCA finally passed the tank dropping test and it was considered a milestone! :)
 
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Blitzo

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I agree with all of that post -- though I am not sure why you said it, is the implication that the inherent difficulty in integrating weapons and the current lack of photos entails... what, they're having issues and PGMs are currently not operational off aircraft?
If so, I never claimed adding weapons were easy...? Unless we're talking about my "let's match the Gripen NG's weapon load!" post. But in that case, the Gripen NG hasn't even been built yet and its loadout was as hypothetical as the J-10s was that I was giving. And the difficulty in integrating said weapons does not negate the potential.

But I do not agree with the last sentence. Photos are not a necessity.
 

johnqh

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Gripen NG is flying already!

It is a demonstrator, not in service. My point is, it shows some potential way to re-design J-10 for better weapon carrying abilities.

The whole discussion is just a mental exercise of us armchair designers on "what would I do if I were the designer?" We put it out there, and in case J-10 gets similar re-design N years later, we get some kind of satisfaction deep inside. That's all.

BTW, I still hope J-8II get re-designed with missiles half-buried under the body.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
John

Your estimates are quite plainly wrong. A very basic mental arithmetic exercise proves that quite well.

We know the J10 is about 15.5-16m long. If there is only 3m either side of the landing gear, and we allow a clearly disproportionately long 2m for the landing gear and doors, you have 8m. Does the nose of the J10 looks like it's half the length of the whole plane?

If you go with 4.5m either side, with the landing gear 2m again and the nose 3m and allow 1.5-2m for the engine nozzle and pilot tube the proportions start looking far more reasonable.

Your logic is also highly self contradictory. You acknowledge that the Gripen is 1/3 small, and the Al31 is 125kn compared to the GE404's 85kn. So if the designers of the J10 are worried about the impact of a bump on performance, what do you think the effects of that bump on the Gripen with far less thrust?

In addition, the load you suggest the Gripen can carry is going to have a far more detrimental effect on the Gripen's performance than a J10 carrying the same load.

The Gripen might theoretically be able to carry more weapons, but it pays for that with a big hit to it's performance even when it is flying clean. It's the same thing with the F16 becoming a far less agile bird as it was rigged to carry more and heavier loads and more fuel, even with a much more powerful engine. That is a design compromise, not a superior solution.

And you example of an F18 with 10 AAMs is exactly the kind of airshow load you would seldomly, if ever, see in real life combat deployments. I have seen F18Es flying with 12AMRAAMs at airshows, and it handles like a truck. Unless you shoot all 8 AMRAAMs in your configuration in the short time you have in BVR, you are lugging them around when you merg or you are jettisoning them. Pretty bad choice either way.

And before you bring multi engagement in BVR into it, you have to remember that the more targets you engage the same time, the less range you have on your radar. You also need to keep all targets painted with your radar for most of the time and your radar only has a small scanning cone. If the targets you are engaging, say 4 bogies with 2 missile each, split and head in different directions, you would be extremely lucky to be able to keep even 2 of them locked till the active seeker can kick in. So you just wasted at least half your missile load. And that's just an example with one of the most basic countermeasures in BVR. When you factor in advanced BVR counter tactics, you are only realisticly only to be engaging 1or2 targets max with any confidence in BVR against even modestly competent opponents. So for small or light fighters to be carrying a huge BVR load into combat is a waste at best and stupid and dangerous at worst.

It's your heavy fighters who really care about weapons load, as they can happily carry 4-6'BVRAAMs in addition to 2-4 WVRAAMs into a dogfight and not only have the pure thrust to not have to worry about a big hit to performance, but also have the fuel left after a merg to go into another engagement.

Your dismissal of all the evidence that the J10 can carry PGMs also greatly dimishes your credibility. There have been many pictures of J10s at offical events with targeting pods and PGMs displayed. The lack of photographic evidence is not conclusive in itself. There are no pictures of PLAAF J11s with R77s, by your logic, they cannot carry R77s. But we know from contract disclosures by the Russians that the J11s have been upgreated to carry R77s. And the Typhoon is a poor if not downright sill example to use.

The main reason it is taking so long with weapons integration is because of funding difficulty and politics between the partners and companies. It is also an outlier example since no other projects took anywhere close to that long for weapons integration. The Rafale or Gripen would have been better examples to used as a benchmark.

Your obsession with air show weapons load and using that as a criticism of the J10 is just superficial and shallow.
 

johnqh

Junior Member
Wow, people get so defensive.

You cannot use the whole under body length unless they are half buried. Need to avoid turbulence to the intake, and the rear ones need to avoid the engine heat and the fins shouldn't reduce approaching angle. Draw some photos yourself and you will see.
 

johnqh

Junior Member
By the way, it is unlikely that j10 carries r77. No country give out protocols to control their missiles (only known exceptions are magic and aim9, short range a2a). So the Chinese su27 cannot fire sd10/pl12, and j11 cannot fire r77.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
As I mentioned in my first post, go take a look at Flankers carrying R27s under their intake, missiles protruding a little in front of the intake is not an issue.

Your mention of heat and fumes for the rear missiles also plainly ignores real world examples like M2Ks and Rafales carrying missiles in pretty much the same position with no problems.

It just looks like you are grasping at straws here.

Making a miscalculation about the lengths and drawing the wrong conclusions is perfectly natural and nothing to be ashamed of, but changing your argument and stubbornly refusing to re-examine your position in light of the new information just looks silly and makes me feel you just got an axe to grind instead of really caring about the subject.

The lack of basic knowledge you are displaying is also pretty disappointing. Only the J11Bs use Chinese radars, the original Su27s and first J11s used Russian radars, which were later upgraded to add R77 compatibility, amongst other things.
 
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