J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

[Hendrik_2000]

The figures I'm getting for the brand new F-16E is that the deal was at 80 million per plane, including spares, and around 55 million per plane as a standalone.

That's more than the Flankers the PLA is running.

The J-11Bs can run AESA because they're intrinsically a more expensive platform dedicated to air superiority, the J-20 can run AESA because it's expected to be $100 million a pop, at minimum, and the AWACS can run AESA because they're more than 100 million a pop, so the additional cost isn't that much on heavier platforms.

For the J-10B, until the Chinese can manage to get the cost down, which is something the Americans are still having trouble with, it will be run on PESA until manufacturing can produce cheap Chinese AESA modules.

I don't know where you get your number But not according to Rafael Smith who is present at last cidex trade show . He is convinced that china has the ability to produce low cost T/R module Here what he has to say

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7th biennial Chinese Defence Electronics Exhibition (CIDEX) 2010, held from 12-14 May, continues the trend for this event of growing in size and importance to the military industrial sector. The 2010 show, which took place at the Beijing Exhibition Centre in the Haidian District, was roughly three times larger than the 2008 exposition, and that growth largely represents firms that had not previously exhibited at this event. Perhaps more significantly, the show continues to grow in the sophistication of the hardware that is displayed

2) Chinese Defence Products Today: State-of-the Art

Chinese defence products were once thought of as being moderately capable copies of previous-generation hardware that contained attributes of Russian, European and Israeli designs. Some of those bloodlines can still be seen in their designs, but the products now being seen at an expo like CIDEX show that Chinese firms have capabilities that approach first world industrial, state-of-the-art levels of sophistication.

In the 1990s, when the Russian defence was in danger of drying up and closing its doors due to an almost complete collapse in any funding from their own government, it was China that saved the day. China bought billions in military hardware from Russia, but it also sent its engineers, designers and technicians to study inside of Russian industry to learn how the weapons it was purchasing had been developed in the first place.

This transfer of technological know-how, plus some enormous investments by the Chinese military into its state-owned industries (what more than one Russian has referred to as “uncontrolled and rampant modernisation”) has produced a defence electronics industry that far outstrips the size and capacity of that which existed in Russia when Chinese industry first began their cooperation with Moscow in the early 1990s.

Today the former students (the Chinese) have become the masters. Chinese industry now has the ability to produce components that the Russian electronics industry (after almost two decades of no investment by their government) is no longer capable of either designing or manufacturing. The initial failure rates on the production of transmit/receive (T/R) modules for the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars being designed for the Mikoyan MiG-35 and the Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA 5th-generation fighter, for example, were so high that it would have bankrupted any western firm involved in a similar programme.

Not surprisingly, this year’s CIDEX show saw groups of Russian specialists going through the halls and looking for components that they could source out of China to be utilised in Russian-designed weapon systems. Russian specialists will point out that they are now at a huge disadvantage to the Chinese in two very significant respects.

 

[Inst]

I'm not doubting that the Chinese will eventually master the AESA technology, but from what we've seen right now, the J-10 is on AESA, and the Chinese AESAs are at best at parity with Russian AESAs, and the picture we've seen shows that the J-10B in the picture uses a PESA radar.

Maybe on a J-10C upgrade? Or a J-10B2 MLU?

I don't think there's any definitive indication that the Chinese have broken through the AESA problem as of yet, however. Remember, Chinese semi-conductors are around 7-10 years behind the West, SMIC had to import IBM's antiquated 45nm technology for its latest chips, and Loongson does not yet have a domestic fab.

Of course, this is China and things move very quickly, but I strongly assert that at this point in time, the Chinese cannot produce an economical AESA radar to the point where it would be worthwhile to staple one onto a J-10B.

====

For less negativity, how about the radar size on the J-10B? The Rafale is limited because its nose-cone is too small; even when it's upgraded to AESA technology, its range will be limited by the small number of T-R modules relative to a F-16. Would the J-10B be able to match the Eurofighter for radar?

We know that the J-10A is a better plane than the Eurofighter simply because the Eurofighter costs so much; unit costs is 4 times that of a J-10A, so if you dump 4 pilots onto a Eurofighter, the Eurofighter will get destroyed for cost-effectiveness.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Nothing but biased opinion from a westerner who cannot accept the fact that China now is on par with the best that the west can produce. All those mumbo jumbo about cost is OLD NEWS. China has moved since then .That horizontal line could be IFF

Here is what air force deputy commander said about aesa apparently the tese was finished in 2008(google translation)

In 2008, with completely independent intellectual property rights of phased array fire control radar, the successful completion of the verification test flight of an aircraft, the thunder and lightning to the military authorities and made ​​a report to the company, (caused a strong reaction in the military?), and by the Army Party leaders at all levels of attention. Jin Wen Air Force deputy commander of a special trip to the spring to understand the situation in Wuxi, after listening to the report, said: "When the time × generation machine project, I have two concerns, one engine problem, the second is the issue of phased array radar. today's perspective, the problem of radar Has been resolved, and we already have their own phased array radar. "Air Force officers and air concerns mounted heads, gave great encouragement . The project completed its validation test machine, the original defense of the Commission held in Beijing on appraisal results, the participating experts really understand the circumstances test gave a high rating: "Phased array radar development, creating a domestic airborne Fire control radar, a new era, filled X-band phased array fire control radar of the gap for the development of × generation machine has laid a solid foundation, marking China's first generation of fighter aircraft to enhance the combat effectiveness of × time has come. "This project also won the annual National Defense Science and Technology Achievement Award.

2008年，具有完全自主知识产权的相控阵火控雷达，在圆满完成了某飞机的验证试飞后，雷电院向部队机关和集团公司做了汇报，在军方引起了强烈反响，并受到军方各级领导的高度关注。空军景文春副司令专程到无锡了解情况、听完汇报后说：“当初×代机立项时，我有两点担忧，一是发动机问题，二是相控阵雷达问题。今天看来，雷达问题已经解决了，我们已经有了自己的相控阵雷达”。空军首长和空装首长的关注，给了雷电院极大鼓舞和鞭策。该项目在完成它机验证试飞后，原国防科工委在北京组织召开了成果鉴定会，与会专家在认真了解试飞情况后给与了高度评价：“相控阵雷达研制，开创了国内机载火控雷达的新纪元，填补了国内X波段相控阵火控雷达的空白，为我国×代机的研制打下了坚实基础，标志着我国第×代战斗机提升战斗力的时机已经到来”。此项目还荣获该年度国家国防科技成果一等奖。

 

[siegecrossbow]

There is now speculation on CD that the "line" on the middle of the radar consist of Chinese characters. If you enlarge the image you can see that the "blocks" making up the line have different sizes. AESA is not out of the picture yet!

 

[Inst]

I'm not going to get involved in a nationalistic flame war, but even on CDF you're very far left, or far right, depending on the context. You are flaming and showing nationalistic insults; you are attacking my person instead of my statements.

For example, the WS-10 has been in the works for more than a decade, yet the WS-10A has only been recently inducted onto the J-15s, and the engine is still not ready to equip J-10As by itself. All the pictures we've seen show the J-10B carrying AL-31s, so at least in the engines we can see you're being overoptimistic about Chinese technological capabilities.

We know that a Russian AESA does exist, and we've seen the Mig-35 AESA and we know about the PAK-FA AESA.

Meanwhile, no concrete information is available on AESA for either the J-10B or the J-11B, although it's likely that the J-11B would receive AESA units as soon as Chinese technology is ready. We are only guessing that the J-20 has an AESA, but it's not completely improbable that the Chinese engineers will miss the milestone and end up putting PESA into the earliest variants.

====

If you're indicating that cost is old news, the reporter you've linked, first, came from Strategypage, which is not a particularly reliable source, and second, he's only implied that Chinese radar manufacturing is now more advanced than Russian radar manufacturing. Remember, up to now, the J-10As were using Russian radar, and the JF-17 was on a Chinese pulse doppler radar. We have no indication as of yet that Chinese fighter AESA radars are ready for deployment. Regarding the reporter you've linked, hence, you could read it the other way and assume what he means is that Russian radar manufacturing has completely collapsed compared to Western research capabilities, without any statement regarding Chinese radar manufacturing ability.

 

[Inst]

It's not IFF, because you don't want to put IFF on the center, where you will need the receivers to obtain maximum range.

As far as the Chinese characters go, why impact performance by sticking bling somewhere you can't see them?

Aside from that, what's the tube on the side of the PESA radar? It's also interesting that the radar device seems oblong, instead of circular as in Russian PESA or hexagonal as in American AESA

 

[Quickie]

I'm not doubting that the Chinese will eventually master the AESA technology, but from what we've seen right now, the J-10 is on AESA, and the Chinese AESAs are at best at parity with Russian AESAs, and the picture we've seen shows that the J-10B in the picture uses a PESA radar.

Maybe on a J-10C upgrade? Or a J-10B2 MLU?

I don't think there's any definitive indication that the Chinese have broken through the AESA problem as of yet, however. Remember, Chinese semi-conductors are around 7-10 years behind the West, SMIC had to import IBM's antiquated 45nm technology for its latest chips, and Loongson does not yet have a domestic fab.

Of course, this is China and things move very quickly, but I strongly assert that at this point in time, the Chinese cannot produce an economical AESA radar to the point where it would be worthwhile to staple one onto a J-10B.

====

For less negativity, how about the radar size on the J-10B? The Rafale is limited because its nose-cone is too small; even when it's upgraded to AESA technology, its range will be limited by the small number of T-R modules relative to a F-16. Would the J-10B be able to match the Eurofighter for radar?

We know that the J-10A is a better plane than the Eurofighter simply because the Eurofighter costs so much; unit costs is 4 times that of a J-10A, so if you dump 4 pilots onto a Eurofighter, the Eurofighter will get destroyed for cost-effectiveness.

In one of the threads here, there are information on SMIC offering 28nm process among the various other processes. It's only a matter of time the Loongson will be manufactured locally, now that the MIPS licensing is already settled.

 

[siegecrossbow]

It's not IFF, because you don't want to put IFF on the center, where you will need the receivers to obtain maximum range.

As far as the Chinese characters go, why impact performance by sticking bling somewhere you can't see them?

There is speculation that what we are seeing is not the actual radar but an cover.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

For example, the WS-10 has been in the works for more than a decade, yet the WS-10A has only been recently inducted onto the J-15s, and the engine is still not ready to equip J-10As by itself. All the pictures we've seen show the J-10B carrying AL-31s, so at least in the engines we can see you're being overoptimistic about Chinese technological capabilities.

We know that a Russian AESA does exist, and we've seen the Mig-35 AESA and we know about the PAK-FA AESA.

Meanwhile, no concrete information is available on AESA for either the J-10B or the J-11B, although it's likely that the J-11B would receive AESA units as soon as Chinese technology is ready. We are only guessing that the J-20 has an AESA, but it's not completely improbable that the Chinese engineers will miss the milestone and end up putting PESA into the earliest variants.

====

If you're indicating that cost is old news, the reporter you've linked, first, came from Strategypage, which is not a particularly reliable source, and second, he's only implied that Chinese radar manufacturing is now more advanced than Russian radar manufacturing. Remember, up to now, the J-10As were using Russian radar, and the JF-17 was on a Chinese pulse doppler radar. We have no indication as of yet that Chinese fighter AESA radars are ready for deployment. Regarding the reporter you've linked, hence, you could read it the other way and assume what he means is that Russian radar manufacturing has completely collapsed compared to Western research capabilities, without any statement regarding Chinese radar manufacturing ability.

Your posting is full of inaccuracy. No J-10 doesn't use russian radar care to back it up I never read anywhere in forum or literature that J-10 use Russian radar.

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A new PD fire-control radar (Type 1473? search >120km, track 4-6, engage 2 simultaneously) is also fitted, but the exact designation is still unknown. A variety of newly developed air-to-air (e.g. PL-8 short-range IR guided AAM and PL-12 medium-range active radar guided AAM) and air-to-surface weapons including KD-88 TV guided ASMs


Here what Dong dong has to say about J-10 radar
Radar

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CAC revealed that the J-10 is equipped with an indigenous fire-control radar featuring a mechanically slewed planar array antenna, capable of tracking 10 targets and engaging 2 (using semi-active radar-homing AAM) or 4 (using active radar-homing AAM) of them simultaneously. Possibly based on Russian or Israeli technologies, the radar is believed to be comparable to the early 1990s-era Western fighter radar designs. Alternatively the J-10 could be fitted with a range of fire-control radar introduced by Russian, Israeli, and European manufacturers on its export variant.


No need to relate the state of Chinese electronic to Jet enginer It has no relation whatsoever.
Chinese electronic industry is world class as exemplify by companies like Huawei. ZTZ
Chinese jet industry is fledging industry due to lack of advanced metalurgy

It come from strategy center and not strategy page 2 different sources!

You can interpret anything you want but it just categorily said China is more advanced than russia when it come to producint T/R module

 

[Inst]

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No, the 32nm is slated for 2013. Among Chinese technological achievements, I picked SMIC because it's a relative disappointment. Still, and always, 7 years behind the West.

===

Hendrik, you're right about Chinese radar on the J-10, but the Chinese radar on the J-10 is PD, not even PESA. It still fits the trend of being antiquated compared to current Russian offerings.

As far as interpretations go, the author never said specifically that the Chinese were doing better than the Russians when it came to AESA production. He implied that the Russians were doing horribly on AESA development, in part because of the brain drain caused by the Soviet collapse.

===

Siegecrossbow: this is what I mean by SDF being overly optimistic about Chinese military technological advancements. Let's just all accept that J-10B in the picture uses PESA, and that in the future it may be outfitted with AESA.

It takes time for manufacturing advancements to translate to actual products. We've all heard about the Chinese technological breakthrough in engine metallurgy, but we have no evidence of a WS-10B in use on the J-10 or the J-11B. It's likely that the technology only brings the Chinese up to the current level of the West, but it's something.