Issues on Intercepting Hypersonic Missile.

Can current AESA radars put out 40 individual pencil thin beams to illuminate targets? Or can they simultaneously or one after another rapidly provide mid-course updates to 40 anti-missile projectiles on their way to meet the supersonic sea-skimmers? These are the questions to be answered, instead of saying China can do this, India cannot do that, or India can do this, USN cannot do that.

Bltizo said:

This is what I mean...

Indian Navy Shivilak and Talwar classes can fire the Brahmos, Rajput class destroyers, the upcoming Kolkata class destroyers... and previous older frigates and destroyers are all being retrofitted to fire the Brahmos.

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That just proves my point. Only future ships like Shivalik and retrofitted Talmar and other ships can fire the Brahmos. How long do you think it will be before India test actually fires an anti-shipping Brahmos? I doubt even 2011.

Bltizo said:

Is 2012 not "anytime soon"? haven't you heard about all the hype on how the IAF Su-30MKIs are getting modified to fire a single Brahmos from beneath their fuselag?? 2012 is the projected time of induction by the IAF...

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I doubt we'll see Brahmos test fired from MKI by 2014. MKI just doesn't have the A2G capability for it.

Let me give you a hint. Take those Indian news with a grain of salt. When they say 2012 is projected time, it means somebody just came up with a concept and they are doing very preliminary thinking and debating about it.

harishkumar09 said:

Bltizo has given the answers which I wanted to give. Brahmos is already deployed, mating it to SU-30 MKI should be done by the end of 2011, I don't think it is such an insurmountable technological challenge.

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MKI can't do ground attack. You would need to replace the avionics completely. I doubt Russia will get around to doing that in the next 5 years.

harishkumar09 said:

And SU-30 MKI can fly low (30m ASL) and launch the Brahmos in lo-lo mode.

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There is a huge difference between flying low and stealth, harishkumar. China has some of the most advanced AWACS in the world and they can detect hundreds of km away, probably the moment the MKI take off from base.

harishkumar09 said:

It might also take out the observation helos, prior to launching and so while you can guess a salvo of Brahmos is on its way, you wont know which direction and won't have targeting data until it is very close.

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Again, you are thinking India has something stealthy that can evade radar. It doesn't have anything stealthy like a B-2 or F-22, I'm afraid.

On the other hand, China is already at the level where it domestic manufactures and exports AWACS. China has a one generation technology lead at least.

harishkumar09 said:

This does not require swarm intelligence of any kind. They can be programmed to independently do it, though it can sometimes result in fratricide.

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This is not a recognized capability of Russian missiles like Yakhont. So unless you have a source for this maneuver, it is groundless rumor.

Roger604 said:

There are lots of Chinese language reports about the PLA discussing specifications and capabilities. These are good sources. Not my problem if western observers like yourself ignore them.

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Why are you still talking? If you had any common sense about you you would have already run away. It doesn't matter if there are Chinese language reports, because 1) if anything those fanboys tend to be even more speculative and nonsensical than you, and 2) they are still nothing more than internet speculation. Finally 3) you have NEVER EVER been able to justify "40" this whole time. Care to do any of that, or are you going to continue to conveniently shy away from having to back up your baseless claims? You sure sounded quite convincing when you were arguing with harishkumar. You didn't talk like you were "speculating". You said "40" like someone would say "the sun will rise tomorrow". Like you actually had a clue what you were stating. So back it up. Or go away.

Roger604 said:

Actually, we noticed that back in 2004.

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The lack of FCR's is not what I'm referring to. Anyone with a pair of eyes can see that. I'm referring to the fact that you are totally clueless when you tried to equate AESA with missile guidance method. It just shows that you don't even know how much you don't know.

Roger604 said:

It's an internet forum called "Sinodefence." People here have the freedom to speculate on the capabilities of Chinese weapons. If you don't like it, why are you here?

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I'm here to read informative facts and discuss reasonable, intelligently argued guesstimates on the capabilities of the Chinese military. You don't provide any of that. You throw out numbers like shamans throw bones to tell peoples' fortune. Don't equate what you post here with what other people post here. If you don't agree with my assessment of you then why don't you go ahead and provide a cogent analysis for this claim:

It's very hard for less than a simultaneous volley of at least 40 Brahmos to overwhelm a 052C.

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That just proves my point. Only future ships like Shivalik and retrofitted Talmar and other ships can fire the Brahmos. How long do you think it will be before India test actually fires an anti-shipping Brahmos? I doubt even 2011.

What do you mean future ships. Shivalik and Talwar are current ships. Brahmos is already in service with the IN. I just hope to God the Chinese Intelligence knows about this!

I doubt we'll see Brahmos test fired from MKI by 2014. MKI just doesn't have the A2G capability for it.

This is amazing! Flankers don't have ground attack capability!

Let me give you a hint. Take those Indian news with a grain of salt. When they say 2012 is projected time, it means somebody just came up with a concept and they are doing very preliminary thinking and debating about it.

I agree that Indian Defence Projects have had their share of time and cost overruns, sometimes huge, but not in this case!

MKI can't do ground attack. You would need to replace the avionics completely. I doubt Russia will get around to doing that in the next 5 years.

ROFTL!

And so how do you think Russians planned to attack ground targets in the event of a war? Use Mig-29s ? Flanker has been in service with ground attack mode for more than 25 years.

Next you are going to say Russians do not have AA capability and Russians will develop it in another 10 years from now! And Chinese are ahead of Russians in AA technology!


There is a huge difference between flying low and stealth, harishkumar. China has some of the most advanced AWACS in the world and they can detect hundreds of km away, probably the moment the MKI take off from base.

Yes. And you are going to have AWACS all over the world, shadowing your fleet all over the Bay of Bengal and the Indian ocean? Do you even know how wars are fought?

AWACS cannot detect any aircraft taking off beyond 500 km.

Again, you are thinking India has something stealthy that can evade radar. It doesn't have anything stealthy like a B-2 or F-22, I'm afraid.

You don't need to be stealthy. We could use AWACS killers like Novator.

On the other hand, China is already at the level where it domestic manufactures and exports AWACS. China has a one generation technology lead at least.

Agreed Chinese have better technology than Indians, but generational lead is nonsense.

This is not a recognized capability of Russian missiles like Yakhont. So unless you have a source for this maneuver, it is groundless rumor.

Brahmos can do S-maneuver and I am sure Russian missiles can do it as well. That is a no-brainer!

Alright, I tried to reply to Roger's posts, but harishkumar09 has already rebutted in an excellent fashion.

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But there are a few points I need to pick at, namely the Novatar missile and Russian air force strike capability.
The Novatar is still years away from deployment if it's even in development at present, and the majority of the RuAF's flankers do not have precision attack capability, it is only recently that they're starting to field Su-34's and 35's. It is the export Su-30 variants to foreign countries which are loaded with goodies.

The rest of your argument I almost completely agree with.

Taking out a Chinese destroyer or for that matter an Indian destroyer or for that matter an AEGIS Destroy in the open ocean unsupported, by saturating with a near simultaneous salvo of 40 supersonic sea skimmers flying entire flight profile in lo-lo mode is a no-brainer.

Of course such a situation rarely occurs in a real battlefield. Indian will be going after your famed AWACS right at the start of war and Chinese commanders are going to be gunning for our Phalcons. Let us not get into all that.

From your posts it appears all you are interested is crowing about China, and most importantly throwing facts out of the window to support your pro-chinese claims. When you say such things as Brahmos is not yet ready and Sukhois don't have ground attack capability, I really wonder why I am replying to you or giving importance to your posts!

India and the World is looking for the development, testing and deployment of hypersonic Brahmos II. Brahmos I is ready and deployed and it is very old news.

Only two things need to be done with regards to Brahmos I. Its testing and deployment from SU-30 MKIs which should be done by beginning or end of 2012, and it will also equip the long range Tu-142 LRMP aircraft, the IL-38 MRMP aircraft and possibly, if integration permits the American P-8 LRMP when it is delivered. Brahmos was developed as an universal cruise missile right from ground up. The next thing is testing and launching from submarines. I think India already tested a Prithvi SSM clone from submerged pontoons and that will be successfully done for Brahmos as well. Brahmos I will attain submarine launch capability by 2014, or even before that.

Roger604 said:

That article is plain wrong. A supersonic ASM gives you 30 seconds time from the time it pops up over the horizon. That's assuming you don't have helicopters to give you more advanced warning (China has them), or if your long-range SAMs haven't taken it out yet beyond the horizon (China has ~200 km range HHQ-9). 30 seconds is plenty of time for Type 730 or Phalanx to shoot it down. I'm not worried about a single supersonic ASM. Type 052C can handle that.

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And who's to say that Helicopter gets to live? a Su-33 cruising at 100 meters altitude will still be able to launch R-77s against a Helicopter. Long range SAMs aren't going to help you if their minimum altitude isn't low enough to catch a sea-skimming plane, nor can a HQ-9 catch a Brahmos/Klub. Trust me, 30 seconds is not a lot of time, Type 052Cs only have 2 Gun-based CIWS, how much time does it takes to engage one missile? 5-10 seconds at best. Oh, by the time the first 2 are destroyed, guess where the second two are? 20 km in front of you. When you kill those, the other two? 10 km. When you kill those, the other two? In your ship, blowing stuff up.

Just because you don't worry, doesn't mean China doesn't. China does not have a Destroyer with full SAM capability yet. All the 052C has are Long range SAMs and Guns, no Medium range, Short Range, or Ballistic range missiles on it.

IronsightSniper said:

Here's a post I made on another forum in regards to CIWS v.s. Supersonic seaskimmers:

Gun-based CIWS will all fail, Russian, Chinese, American, against anything moving at Mach 2 at 10 meters altitude or lower.

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Excellent post backed up by good analysis.

And that is the reason why quite a few countries are now developing and deploying super-sonic missiles. Most (all?) of the current CIWS have not been tested against a supersonic missile that is representative of the threat and demonstrated a decent chance of stopping it, much less stopping more than 1.

Also, the issue of taking out supersonic missiles in-flight seems over simplified, particularly for sea skimmers. The biggest issue is how to cue the anti-missile missiles towards the sea skimmers so that terminal guidance can lock on to the target. No terminal guidance means no long range intercept.

Even with terminal guidance locked on, there will not be 100% kill. I don't think there is any missile in the world that has a 100% kill record.

As for IR-guided missiles, there is a reason why IR sensors are used for short range missiles only, and not mid or long range missiles. This is because of the IR absorption in the atmosphere, which reduces the effective range of IR sensors. Oh, rain, mist and fog will screw up IR tracking too. Good luck trying to use IR guidance in those conditions.

Great discussion guys. I missed the hardware nerds, they're the heart and soul of this site.

My 2 cents of the top of my head is that with long range anti-air missiles, it generally pays to subtract a few miles off of their "maximum" range to get a real sense of their effectiveness. This goes for A2A missiles and SAMs. From what I understand, it's rare that they are fired at their absolute max range.

Spartan95 said:

And that is the reason why quite a few countries are now developing and deploying super-sonic missiles. Most (all?) of the current CIWS have not been tested against a supersonic missile that is representative of the threat and demonstrated a decent chance of stopping it, much less stopping more than 1.

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Which countries do you refer to here? I only know of Russia and India who are still pursuing supersonic anti ship missiles -- all the other big players; US, UK, France, China, Japan, what not... they all seem to be sticking to subsonic AShMs...