Issues on Intercepting Hypersonic Missile.

Engineer

Major
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

Actually, there is. Because that is precisely what you will be doing when you make it operational and it gives you the chance to test all of those systems together...which will have to work together when the time comes. Always best to have actually done the thing you propose before you put something into real life use...otherwise you are asking for failure at precisely the most critical moment.
You have missed my point entirely, which is that there could be other possible means to test the system as a whole instead of shooting a live target out in the Pacific. Any advantage gain from doing the type of tests you've suggested would be negated by the obvious fact that other nations can obtain critical information on the system in such a test. In anycase, my conclusion that we haven't seen any test is not equivalent to there hasn't been any test still stands.

But...again, we continue on this thread a discussion best suited for a different thread...and our arguements are becoming circular in any case.
This is akin to saying you have an itch and are expecting me to scratch it. If you have serious problems continuing the discussion, then why do you even bothered to reply? :confused:
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

You have missed my point entirely, which is that there could be other possible means to test the system as a whole instead of shooting a live target out in the Pacific. Any advantage gain from doing the type of tests you've suggested would be negated by the obvious fact that other nations can obtain critical information on the system in such a test.
Circular. See my last for the advantages that cannot be gained as you describe.

We are not going to agree. That is fine.

But I bet, should the Chinese move towards making any such system operational, you will see test exercises of it, testing it in as real world a scenario as possible on some kind of a Chinese live fire range somewhere in the Pacific for precisely the types of reasons I opined.
 

Engineer

Major
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

Circular. See my last for the advantages that cannot be gained as you describe.
Your last post does not address my point in anyway. Actually, you haven't done so for quite a few posts already. But clearly you think you do, so perhaps you should clarify how they are relevant so that we won't be caught in a situation where we are arguing about completely different things.

Note that I never assert that the tests you described do not carry advantages, if that is what you think I am doing. In fact, for me to suggest there can be something to negate implies that I am in agreement with you that such tests do carry advantages. However, I think you have completely ignored any associated disadvantages. Or perhaps I should take the lack of counter-argument as a subtle agreement that there is no net-advantage to be gained?

We are not going to agree. That is fine.
Of course we are in disagreement. I do not see any problem with this.

But I bet, should the Chinese move towards making any such system operational, you will see test exercises of it, testing it in as real world a scenario as possible on some kind of a Chinese live fire range somewhere in the Pacific for precisely the types of reasons I opined.
Your reasons have already been noted, and responses have already presented. These responses however, have yet been responded to. To summarize: 1) no, there is no point for a live test to prove something is operational, despite you are claiming otherwise. Quite a few designs of nuclear warhead are not tested yet no one doubts their operational status. 2) Even with an actual flight tests, there isn't a rule saying the test must satisfy every requirements you have listed in order for it to be qualified to be a demonstration.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

Your last post does not address my point in anyway.
Other than to say that the discussion has become circular...you are right. Since it has become circular, there is no further need to address it.

However, I think you have completely ignored any associated disadvantages. Or perhaps I should take the lack of counter-argument as a subtle agreement that there is no net-advantage to be gained?
Nope. See my response above...more circular discussion of ground already covered.


Of course we are in disagreement. I do not see any problem with this.
Precisely.


1) no, there is no point for a live test to prove something is operational, despite you are claiming otherwise. Quite a few designs of nuclear warhead are not tested yet no one doubts their operational status.
That's because the technology for them is proven. Not so for this design of a claim to field a ballistic missile and warhead, manueverable in the terminal stage to hit a moving target at sea thousands of kilometers away with OTH radar and other means for target acquisition before launch and during flight. That is something entirely new which will also be pitted against an active and further developing defense.

...but there we go again. You have your opinion, I have mine. Time will tell.

When we see something much more demonstrable, I will be happy to get back together and discuss those developments
 

Engineer

Major
Other than to say that the discussion has become circular...you are right. Since it has become circular, there is no further need to address it.
If your "last post" did not address my concern, then I failed to see the purpose for pointing me to it.:rolleyes: As I have pointed out, I am not arguing that your tests provide no advantages at all. I concur that there are advantages, but said they can be negated by other factors. You may want to re-read the discussion to ensure you are not addressing something else entirely.

Nope. See my response above...more circular discussion of ground already covered.
Said response did not address my point.

Precisely.
Yep.

That's because the technology for them is proven. Not so for this design of a claim to field a ballistic missile and warhead, manueverable in the terminal stage to hit a moving target at sea thousands of kilometers away with OTH radar and other means for target acquisition before launch and during flight. That is something entirely new which will also be pitted against an active and further developing defense.
Er, no. You assert that a "real test" must be done because it's "always best to have actually done the thing you propose before you put something into real life use". So in that regard, a new nuclear warhead design, which undoubtedly involves new concepts, would have to be tested as a whole. Otherwise, it is not proven, because the new concepts are not proven. This is your logic.

If your qualification for "proven" is that an old nuclear device has been tested as a whole, then I should point out that the old device is irrelevant. An old device does not contain new concepts. By extension of your logic, as long as new concepts are not tested as a whole with the system, they are still not proven, thus the new nuclear device is still not proven.

See, you tried to set up the definition for "operational" by requiring a "real test", but then immediately do away with it when it suits you.:rolleyes: And why do you do away with it? Because said requirement is flawed. No one denies that a "real test" might be nice to do but there simply isn't such a requirement.

Now, we should not limit ourselves on using nuclear warhead as the only example. There are many instances where only components are tested individually, and a "real test" is not carried out. In fact, it is done all the time. For example, components on a satellite are tested extensively, but never can there be a "real test" before launch.



...but there we go again. You have your opinion, I have mine. Time will tell.

When we see something much more demonstrable, I will be happy to get back together and discuss those developments
To clarify, I am fully well aware of the possibilities that ASBM does not exist. However, that does not mean those who are denying the possibilities for ASBM's existence with all sorts of implicit arguments are correct.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Said response did not address my point.
Was not meant to. The arguement has become circular...no need to address it because it already has been. We just disagree. See my last for any more discussion on that point.

You assert that a "real test" must be done because it's "always best to have actually done the thing you propose before you put something into real life use". So in that regard, a new nuclear warhead design, which undoubtedly involves new concepts, would have to be tested as a whole.
The logic holds. The PRC did test nuclear weapons, just like the US, Russia, and others. Those desings are proven...they do not need to be re-tested. This only proves my assertion.

Now, the new missiles they ride on, the new guidance systems they use, etc...those get tested quite regularly. But the science and design of the atomic or hydrodgen, etc. reactions are a science that is strongly enough defined that they can proceed without doing so...because they already have.

When the PRC or anyone else builds a next generation aircraft...get back with me when they deploy it without testing it.

But here we go again...saying the same things over and over.

You go ahead and spout on all you want. You can have the last word, heck you can have 100 last words. Wont change a thing. I have made my points and yous have made your ad infinitum. I am content to let others read and come to their own conclusions.

But on this issue, for any further response from me...just refer back to these last several posts.
 

Engineer

Major
Was not meant to. The arguement has become circular...no need to address it because it already has been. We just disagree. See my last for any more discussion on that point.
Again, if your "last post" did not address my concern, then I failed to see the purpose for pointing me to it. You can drone on and on about how great it would be to do a "real test" but that is not equivilent to addressing my point. If you strongly disagree about it, you are welcome to provide clarification. No need to play Ad nauseam.

The logic holds. The PRC did test nuclear weapons, just like the US, Russia, and others. Those desings are proven...they do not need to be re-tested. This only proves my assertion.
Yes, old designs involved in nuclear tests are proven. No, new designs that have not undergone a "real test" are not. This is your assertion when you said "always best to have actually done the thing you propose before you put something into real life use" and now you are contradicting it with "but it is different" non-sense.

Now, the new missiles they ride on, the new guidance systems they use, etc...those get tested quite regularly. But the science and design of the atomic or hydrodgen, etc. reactions are a science that is strongly enough defined that they can proceed without doing so...because they already have.
And the theory behind the operation of a ballistic missile is also strongly enough defined that it is possible for a nation such as China, which has a lot of experience in missile technologies, to conduct tests via other means rather than performing the kind of "real test" you are demanding. To clarify, I'm not saying that no tests need to be done, nor am I claiming that ASBM actually exists. All I am doing is pointing out flaws in your argument.

When the PRC or anyone else builds a next generation aircraft...get back with me when they deploy it without testing it.
Strawman.
I never argued that tests are not required. Such argument only exists in your head. I am saying that the kind of "real test" you are demanding is not a requirement. This is what I mean when I suggest a while ago that youb are addressing something else different entirely.


But here we go again...saying the same things over and over.

You go ahead and spout on all you want. You can have the last word, heck you can have 100 last words. Wont change a thing. I have made my points and yous have made your ad infinitum. I am content to let others read and come to their own conclusions.

But on this issue, for any further response from me...just refer back to these last several posts.

"Won't change a thing" is very well said. You can argue until you are blue in the face, but at the end of the day, you haven't seen ASBM just means you haven't seen it. The possibilities for the existance of ASBM is still there, and by my observation, this is something you are unwilling to accept. :rolleyes:
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
I'm not going to go through all the post and try to make a point on selected statement.

As someone who actually served on active duty with the USN for 20 years and as a reserve for 10 years I'll state this. No modern military is going to put into operation any weapons systems that has not been thoroughly tested. Be it a bullet or a missile. You really need to know how, if and will that weapons system will work before declaring it operational.

Personally I do think the Chinese are developing some sort of AShBM. There's is no proof as far as I can ascertain that said weapon has been tested.

I'm out.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
You can argue until you are blue in the face, but at the end of the day, you haven't seen ASBM just means you haven't seen it. The possibilities for the existance of ASBM is still there, and by my observation, this is something you are unwilling to accept. :rolleyes:
Seems like you are the only one arguing. I put my part of the discussion on testing of the system to rest some time ago and do not intend to visit it again...there is no need to rehash the same thing over and over.

As to your last...LOL I have never said that the program does not exist. To the contrary, I have made it clear that the Chinese are working on such a program. The issue has been the live, functional testing and the need for it and my acceptance that the PRC will field such a system only after such testing occurs.

For my thoughts on that testing...read my prior posts.

bd popeye said:
As someone who actually served on active duty with the USN for 20 years and as a reserve for 10 years I'll state is this. No modern military is going to put into operation any weapons systems that has not been thoroughly tested. Be it a bullet or a missile. You really need to know how, if and will that weapons system will work before declaring it operational.

Personally I do think the Chinese are developing some sort of AShBM. There's is no proof as far as I can ascertain that said weapon has been tested.
Well said Popeye...and I agree 100%. The PRC is working on something, but to date, there is no evidence of any major, live, long range test of such a system against they type of target they intend it for. No doubt they are doing ground and other testing as the move along.
 
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Engineer

Major
Seems like you are the only one arguing. I put my part of the discussion on testing of the system to rest some time ago and do not intend to visit it again...there is no need to rehash the same thing over and over.
LOL... If I am the only one arguing then who am I quoting here? Oh wait, it is you whom I'm quoting. There is a saying that goes something a long the line of "one hand clapping doesn't make a sound", so nice try blaming me for your arguments Ad nauseam such as "we just disagree", "we just disagree", "we just disagree", "we just disagree", "we just disagree"... :rolleyes:

As to your last...LOL I have never said that the program does not exist. To the contrary, I have made it clear that the Chinese are working on such a program. The issue has been the live, functional testing and the need for it and my acceptance that the PRC will field such a system only after such testing occurs.
Heh, when have I mentioned anything regarding "program"? That only occurs in your head. I was referring to the physical system itself, specifically pointing out the flaw behind your 100% certainty that the physical system cannot exist until it went through one of your "real test".

For my thoughts on that testing...read my prior posts.
Your thoughts on tests have been noted many times. Yes, your "real test" is nice and all, but you seem to have been imaging an argument from me saying it is not. All I have been pointing out is that tests can take many forms and your demands for a test do not have to be met for the system to be "demonstrated".

No modern military is going to put into operation any weapons systems that has not been thoroughly tested. Be it a bullet or a missile. You really need to know how, if and will that weapons system will work before declaring it operational.
Of course it has to be throughly tested. No one is disputing that.
 
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