cn_habs
Junior Member
In before the HMS QE breaks down trying to get to the Middle East. It's only good for PR.
Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)
- Thread starter phrozenflame
- Start date
In before the HMS QE breaks down trying to get to the Middle East. It's only good for PR.
But how did Hamas even managed to learn the whereabouts and the existence, plus the right personnel that manned/staffed said IDF intelligence unit with the focus on GAZA?
Maybe Putin could lend a tug boat in a show of European solidarity.
No way Britain would allow that!
The QE would be helpless if the tugboat just started tugging it in the opposite direction from Israel.
Most likely:
OSINT from sources such as LinkedIn, Twitter and etc.
HUMINT from people on the ground within Israel.
Israeli complacency such as using the same road to go to work.
All of the above along with the paraglider, small units tactics, drone strike, and other training must have been conducted for years. In short, Hamas, Hezbollah, and other groups were preparing for a while to strike Israel but just needed the green light to do so.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. When one has been top dog for so long, one tends to ignore reality. Shit, the US thought it was a good idea to invade Afghanistan which have earned the title of "Graveyard of Empires." I would say "they" earned the accusation of being "stupid."
Since you're an American, you should know about (Ret.) Gen. W. Clark's interview with Amy Goodman (i.e. "7 countries in 5 years" plan). It's well known that the Hezzies is what keeps the planners awake at night when planning to attack Iran. They don't need to fully occupy Lebanon; just take out the Hezzies abilities to wage war against Israel. US boots on Lebanese soil is the only sure way to secure Northern Israel. And yes, I remember the Beirut attack in '83. It won't stop them if they really want to end this.
This is because the Israelis genuinely believe the whole of Israel is theirs, and they are the sole owners. Israeli does not view it as occupation, but rather, they view is as containment, and monitor the Palestinians, and eventually, remove them from the holy land. They have zero intention to settle. Their desire is to remove everyone else from their Holy Land. This is a fundamental problem behind the bloodshed, and it isn't going to end unless both sides compromise.
According to whom?
Hamas is not regarded as a terrorist organization by Afghanistan, Algeria, Iran,[458] Russia,[459] Norway,[v] Switzerland,[461] Turkey, China,[462] Egypt, Syria, and Brazil.[463][464][465][466][467][468][excessive citations] Many other states, including Russia, China, Syria, Turkey and Iran consider the (armed) struggle waged by Hamas to be legitimate."[469]
The designation by EU is important for using legal methods of limiting financing and seizure of assets.
ETA or Provisional IRA was a terrorist group because they performed acts of terror i.e. inflicting fear on a population through violence for the purpose of achieving their political goals without attempting to conduct any other form of political activity or regular or irregular warfare. They just engaged in explicit terrorism and more importantly they lacked popular support for their actions.
Hamas is a political organisation representing a group of people who are engaged in a continuing struggle of national liberation as well as religious holy war against state of Israel and conducts regular and irregular warfare as well as political agitation. They have at least 50% of tentative support from the population which they claim to represent.
The "acts of terror" are conducted against targets which Hamas describes as legitimate military targets and I see no way in which that definition is objectively invalid. The rules of war here are imposed by a stronger party on the weaker party and Israel breaks the rules on a regular basis.
But more importantly the very same thing happened in Yugoslavia in the 1990s: during wars between Croatia and Serbia, in Bosnia and later in Kosovo and nobody claimed that any party engaged in the war was "terrorist". Committing war crimes and breaking laws of war - yes, those accusations were presented. But not terrorism.
Painting Hamas as "terrorists" is Israeli/American/etc. propaganda that aims to distort reality of the situation. Hamas views the population of Israel as an occupying force and is waging irregular warfare against them openly. That is not terrorism unless you want to classify every single military force which has ever engaged in warfare as a terrorist organisation.
I don't see how you can designate Hamas as a terrorist organisation while not designating either US Armed Forces or IDF as the same.
You don't have to support a side to be honest in representing their position and actions. Rules must be universal and symmetrical if they are to be "rules" at all. Otherwise they're just deception and of all places SDF should understand how much that deception is used by USA to further its political goals.
There:
Suddenly they remember about Palestinians' "equal right". What exactly did it take to remember it? And therein lies the answer to the methods.
EOT.
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Here are situational maps from Rybar at the end of each day of war:
Hamas-controlled territory is marked green. All attacks in of Palestinian forces incl. Hamas are denoted with the same colour.
Rybar has limited credibility but it is the best and most convenient source of information that presents situation in a consistent manner that I have at this moment.
According to these maps Hamas maintained control of territory outside of Gaza strip on 7 and 8 October and on 9 and 10 October the area was redesignated as contested.
Green arrows indicate that forces are being rotated between Gaza strip and contested area.
From Wiki - for comparison:
The situation considering the potential committed by both sides is heavily in favour of Hamas. I am very surprised that they are managing to still contest a quite sizeable area despite IDF air interdiction as well as obvious limitations of their own logistical lines.
Liveuamap shows clashes 7h ago within 5km of Gaza strip boundary but also indicates a clash in Askhelon 4h ago but that may be a missile attack.
It's difficult to tell what the condition of IDF is currently because of military censorship but I would expect them to push the narrative of regained control if they had any means of preventing Hamas from counter it. This indicates that they still do not control it fully. Previously IDF denied Hamas' claims of attack on the base in Zikim, which was assaulted from the sea, to which Hamas publicised the video proving their claim.
I also tend to measure the condition by intensity of hyperbole in the lies that any side disseminates.
Among many exaggerated or plausibly false claims Israel is currently running an offensively stupid story about "40 beheaded babies" which is similar in tone to that fraudulent testimony before Gulf War. To me that indicates that they are feeling very insecure to be reaching for such absurd and illogical narratives and the only question is only what causes such insecurity.
I have no plausible explanation at this moment but that's because there are too many possible options considering the scale of IDF's failure.
E.g.
I don't have any precise numbers on missiles launched from Gaza and by Israeli defenses. I have no idea how many Tamir missiles IDF has and while US is by law commited to match the funding for every Iron Dome missile launched they may simply run out of ammunition if Hamas managed to prepare sufficient stockpile. Tamir is designed to be as affordable as possible but there are always bottlenecks in production in short periods and in any case Hezbollah is always a much bigger threat.
IDF claims that just in the opening barrage Hamas used 3000 missiles. Hamas claims 5000. While Iron Dome fire control system discriminates against "safe" trajectories it still is a lot, and the ataacks continue, albeit at much lower rate.
Also, something that was brought up by Szewko in the podcast: Hamas allegedly captured documents in the headquarters of the unit responsible for coordinating security along Gaza perimeter. He suggested that this would include lists of informants within Gaza which will lead to elimination of significant number of HUMINT assets for the IDF and disclosure of IDF awareness of Hamas' infrastructure in Gaza etc.
They are not wrong. I don't see either Hamas surrendering or IDF being competent to execute this operation without massive casualties among civilian population. Unless the entirety of Gaza is evacuated this will likely end badly for Israel either in short or long term or both.
GT got several firsthand accounts from Chinese citizens of the situation in Israel:
By Leng Shumei and
Published: Oct 10, 2023 07:06 PM
Editor's Note:
The attack by Hamas and Israel's retaliation since Saturday have reportedly left more than 1,600 dead and thousands wounded on both sides with other thousands of injuries, Associated Press reported Tuesday. Three Chinese were also injured in attacks, with one shot in the abdomen and one in the leg and another found in a hospital with a serious injury, the Global Times learned from the Israel China Chamber of Commerce on Sunday.
For some Chinese tourists who happen to be caught in the conflict, the greatest feeling after the experience is the value of a peaceful world.
This story is a part of the Global Times' series of "Witness to history," which features first-hand accounts from witnesses who were at the forefront of historic moments. From scholars, politicians and diplomats to ordinary citizens, their authentic reflections on the impact of historical moments help reveal a sound future for humanity through the solid steps forward taken in the past and the present.
Smoke rises over Gaza City during Israeli airstrikes, which came soon after the militant group Hamas' rampage into Israel on October 7, 2023. According to army sources, several armed Palestinians have entered Israeli territory during the barrage of rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip. Photos: VCG
The first time Zhang Yue (pseudonym), a Chinese woman working in Tel Aviv in the tourism industry, was woken up by an air raid alarm at about 6:30 am on Saturday morning, she could not figure out what it was and fell back to sleep. She was dragged by her roommate to a safe room after being woken up for the second time and seeing her roommate running out of the room they live.
"'What happened?' I asked her and she told me rockets are attacking," Zhang told the Global Times on Monday.
"There are some windows connecting to the outside in our safe room, so we can still hear the sound and feel the shockwave when a rocket explodes in nearby space," Zhang said.
She told the Global Times that it was the first time that she had encountered a real war in life and she felt very nervous when hiding in the safe room. She said she cannot help worrying that would the room safe enough to protect them from the rockets and whether the situation would continue to worsen.
The Israelis in the safe room hugged Zhang and comforted her. But Zhang noticed many were also nervous. Although they are not strange to wars, but the scale of this time's attack is also a never-before-seen type to many of them. "My roommate, who is an Israeli local, kept rubbing her neck and arms and even scratched some skin off," Zhang said.
Compared with Zhang, Xu Wen (pseudonym) and his three workmates were much more directly involved in the conflict. Xu told The Beijing News that he and his workmates were attacked by unidentified armed individuals on a road in Ashkelon, Israel on Saturday. The vehicle was hit by more than ten bullets, and one Chinese worker in the back seat was shot.
Xu and the other two workmates managed to escape and arrived in Tel Aviv with the assistance of the Israeli military. The injured worker is currently receiving treatment in the hospital and is out of danger.
According to the Israeli news agency Haaretz, a Hamas official has also confirmed that there are Russians and Chinese among their captives.
The has issued travel alerts on both Saturday and Monday. Mao Ning, the spokesperson for the Chinese Foreign Ministry, stated on Monday that the embassy and its office in Palestine are in constant communication with Chinese nationals in these areas. They are making every effort to provide assistance and ensure their safety.
Rockets fired by Palestinian militants Hamas from the Gaza Strip are intercepted by the Israeli Iron Dome defence missile system in the early hours of October 8, 2023. Photo: VCG
Full of uncertainty
During the intense rockets attack on Saturday, Zhang said they have to hide to the safe room every one or two hours. But the situation gradually calmed down in central and northern Tel Aviv since Saturday night. "I lived in Ramat Gan [in eastern Tel Aviv] on Sunday night. I heard two explosions between 11 and 12 pm, but sounded like it was far away," Zhang said.
People have been going out to purchase essential goods on Monday. Zhang's friends working in the airport also went back to work.
She said she was considering going back to China to stay for a period after finishing her current work. "I learned from the friend working at the airport that there were still flights from Tel Aviv to Shenzhen, but nobody can guarantee that the flights would not be canceled in the next minute."
"Everything is still unknown," she said.
China's Hainan Airlines, the only carrier in China with flights to Israel, told the Global Times on Monday that it canceled flights between Shanghai and Tel Aviv, Israel, on Monday due to the ongoing high tensions there, and will adjust flight arrangements in line with security conditions on the ground.
The airline has three direct flights between China and the country, which depart from Beijing, Shanghai and Shenzhen, operating twice a week on each route.
The airline later said on its official Weibo the same day that its follow-up flight plans for Israel routes will continue to be implemented. There has been no adjustment for the time being in an effort to maximize and ensure the normal travel of passengers.
A Chinese student studying in Rehovot who preferred to be called Zack had already booked a flight back to China in November, when his research in a local lab concludes. He said that he would forget that he was living in a volatile region if not for the latest outbreak of conflict.
Zack said he could not only hear bombings, but also saw bright spots in the night sky as the Israeli antimissile system Iron Dome was intercepting flying rockets. "I encountered a round of fighting in this May when I came to Israel. But it was only scattered attacks. This time was totally different. The rockets are like fireworks exploding in the air," Zack said.
But Zhang's daily life remains undisrupted. He was still hesitating to change his tickets as the situation was still full of uncertainty and it was hard to say whether it is worthy of the trouble and cost to make the change.
A man stands in front of a damaged shop in Tel Aviv, after it was hit by a rocket fired by Palestinian militants from the Gaza Strip on October 7, 2023. Photo: VCG
Hope for peace
Many have canceled trips to Israel amid the escalated conflict there, including Tongcheng Travel, GZL International Travel Service and Spring Tour. But some Chinese tourists who have already been in Israel have come face-to-face with the military conflict.
"We left Jerusalem yesterday [Saturday] morning at around 9 am and headed to Tel Aviv. Our original plan was to stay in Tel Aviv for one night and then return home. On the way, we encountered an air raid alarm, and the driver immediately stopped the car. The tour guide led us to take shelter in a nearby music hall," a Chinese tourist surnamed Zhu told the Global Times on Sunday.
Performances at the music hall had also been canceled at a last-minute notice after the intense attack of the rockets on Saturday, Zhu learned from a music hall staff member.
Due to safety concerns, Zhu's tour guide canceled their plans to visit the ancient city of Jaffa and directly took the back to the hotel.
Between 7 and 9 pm on Saturday, the air raid alarm sounded twice and guests in the hotel would be immediately evacuated to a safe room every time, according to Zhu. "After 9 pm, it became relatively calm... On Sunday afternoon, we flew back to Beijing with Hainan Airlines. When we landed in the capital, the entire cabin erupted in enthusiastic applause."
Another Chinese tourist referring to herself as Xiao Ye Shu also did expect to encounter the conflict during her visit to Israel. In a post of her in Little Red Book (Xiaohongshu) - a popular lifestyle sharing and purchasing decision-making platform, on Sunday when she arrived at the Tel Aviv Ben Gurion Int'l Airport and was ready to return to China, she says, "Life has to move on. I wish more for a peaceful world after going through all of this."
By Leng Shumei and
Published: Oct 10, 2023 07:06 PM
Editor's Note:
The attack by Hamas and Israel's retaliation since Saturday have reportedly left more than 1,600 dead and thousands wounded on both sides with other thousands of injuries, Associated Press reported Tuesday. Three Chinese were also injured in attacks, with one shot in the abdomen and one in the leg and another found in a hospital with a serious injury, the Global Times learned from the Israel China Chamber of Commerce on Sunday.
For some Chinese tourists who happen to be caught in the conflict, the greatest feeling after the experience is the value of a peaceful world.
This story is a part of the Global Times' series of "Witness to history," which features first-hand accounts from witnesses who were at the forefront of historic moments. From scholars, politicians and diplomats to ordinary citizens, their authentic reflections on the impact of historical moments help reveal a sound future for humanity through the solid steps forward taken in the past and the present.
Smoke rises over Gaza City during Israeli airstrikes, which came soon after the militant group Hamas' rampage into Israel on October 7, 2023. According to army sources, several armed Palestinians have entered Israeli territory during the barrage of rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip. Photos: VCG
The first time Zhang Yue (pseudonym), a Chinese woman working in Tel Aviv in the tourism industry, was woken up by an air raid alarm at about 6:30 am on Saturday morning, she could not figure out what it was and fell back to sleep. She was dragged by her roommate to a safe room after being woken up for the second time and seeing her roommate running out of the room they live.
"'What happened?' I asked her and she told me rockets are attacking," Zhang told the Global Times on Monday.
"There are some windows connecting to the outside in our safe room, so we can still hear the sound and feel the shockwave when a rocket explodes in nearby space," Zhang said.
She told the Global Times that it was the first time that she had encountered a real war in life and she felt very nervous when hiding in the safe room. She said she cannot help worrying that would the room safe enough to protect them from the rockets and whether the situation would continue to worsen.
The Israelis in the safe room hugged Zhang and comforted her. But Zhang noticed many were also nervous. Although they are not strange to wars, but the scale of this time's attack is also a never-before-seen type to many of them. "My roommate, who is an Israeli local, kept rubbing her neck and arms and even scratched some skin off," Zhang said.
Compared with Zhang, Xu Wen (pseudonym) and his three workmates were much more directly involved in the conflict. Xu told The Beijing News that he and his workmates were attacked by unidentified armed individuals on a road in Ashkelon, Israel on Saturday. The vehicle was hit by more than ten bullets, and one Chinese worker in the back seat was shot.
Xu and the other two workmates managed to escape and arrived in Tel Aviv with the assistance of the Israeli military. The injured worker is currently receiving treatment in the hospital and is out of danger.
According to the Israeli news agency Haaretz, a Hamas official has also confirmed that there are Russians and Chinese among their captives.
The has issued travel alerts on both Saturday and Monday. Mao Ning, the spokesperson for the Chinese Foreign Ministry, stated on Monday that the embassy and its office in Palestine are in constant communication with Chinese nationals in these areas. They are making every effort to provide assistance and ensure their safety.
Rockets fired by Palestinian militants Hamas from the Gaza Strip are intercepted by the Israeli Iron Dome defence missile system in the early hours of October 8, 2023. Photo: VCG
Full of uncertainty
During the intense rockets attack on Saturday, Zhang said they have to hide to the safe room every one or two hours. But the situation gradually calmed down in central and northern Tel Aviv since Saturday night. "I lived in Ramat Gan [in eastern Tel Aviv] on Sunday night. I heard two explosions between 11 and 12 pm, but sounded like it was far away," Zhang said.
People have been going out to purchase essential goods on Monday. Zhang's friends working in the airport also went back to work.
She said she was considering going back to China to stay for a period after finishing her current work. "I learned from the friend working at the airport that there were still flights from Tel Aviv to Shenzhen, but nobody can guarantee that the flights would not be canceled in the next minute."
"Everything is still unknown," she said.
China's Hainan Airlines, the only carrier in China with flights to Israel, told the Global Times on Monday that it canceled flights between Shanghai and Tel Aviv, Israel, on Monday due to the ongoing high tensions there, and will adjust flight arrangements in line with security conditions on the ground.
The airline has three direct flights between China and the country, which depart from Beijing, Shanghai and Shenzhen, operating twice a week on each route.
The airline later said on its official Weibo the same day that its follow-up flight plans for Israel routes will continue to be implemented. There has been no adjustment for the time being in an effort to maximize and ensure the normal travel of passengers.
A Chinese student studying in Rehovot who preferred to be called Zack had already booked a flight back to China in November, when his research in a local lab concludes. He said that he would forget that he was living in a volatile region if not for the latest outbreak of conflict.
Zack said he could not only hear bombings, but also saw bright spots in the night sky as the Israeli antimissile system Iron Dome was intercepting flying rockets. "I encountered a round of fighting in this May when I came to Israel. But it was only scattered attacks. This time was totally different. The rockets are like fireworks exploding in the air," Zack said.
But Zhang's daily life remains undisrupted. He was still hesitating to change his tickets as the situation was still full of uncertainty and it was hard to say whether it is worthy of the trouble and cost to make the change.
A man stands in front of a damaged shop in Tel Aviv, after it was hit by a rocket fired by Palestinian militants from the Gaza Strip on October 7, 2023. Photo: VCG
Hope for peace
Many have canceled trips to Israel amid the escalated conflict there, including Tongcheng Travel, GZL International Travel Service and Spring Tour. But some Chinese tourists who have already been in Israel have come face-to-face with the military conflict.
"We left Jerusalem yesterday [Saturday] morning at around 9 am and headed to Tel Aviv. Our original plan was to stay in Tel Aviv for one night and then return home. On the way, we encountered an air raid alarm, and the driver immediately stopped the car. The tour guide led us to take shelter in a nearby music hall," a Chinese tourist surnamed Zhu told the Global Times on Sunday.
Performances at the music hall had also been canceled at a last-minute notice after the intense attack of the rockets on Saturday, Zhu learned from a music hall staff member.
Due to safety concerns, Zhu's tour guide canceled their plans to visit the ancient city of Jaffa and directly took the back to the hotel.
Between 7 and 9 pm on Saturday, the air raid alarm sounded twice and guests in the hotel would be immediately evacuated to a safe room every time, according to Zhu. "After 9 pm, it became relatively calm... On Sunday afternoon, we flew back to Beijing with Hainan Airlines. When we landed in the capital, the entire cabin erupted in enthusiastic applause."
Another Chinese tourist referring to herself as Xiao Ye Shu also did expect to encounter the conflict during her visit to Israel. In a post of her in Little Red Book (Xiaohongshu) - a popular lifestyle sharing and purchasing decision-making platform, on Sunday when she arrived at the Tel Aviv Ben Gurion Int'l Airport and was ready to return to China, she says, "Life has to move on. I wish more for a peaceful world after going through all of this."
Syria has Oniks anti-ship supersonic cruise missiles with Bastion-P. There are claims that Hezbollah also operates the Oniks.
I kind of doubt that Hamas has any large anti-ship missiles though. Maybe some of the smaller missiles.
I saw photos of Hamas forces with the tandem HEAT anti-tank PG-7VR round for the RPG-7. It is claimed they used this to at least take down one of the Merkava 4 tanks. So much for its widely lauded protection when even these relatively small charges can destroy the tank.
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