ISIS/ISIL conflict in Syria/Iraq (No OpEd, No Politics)

shen said:

Technically of course it is true that ISIS is Muslim. Ok, so what, how does that definition help us to defeat them?

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The problem is if you read typical postings that don't understand the religion you won't understand the issue. You first of all need to understand how the Koran is derived. The Koran to Muslims is the direct revelation of "god". That is the reason why translation is not acceptable because you can't translate the direct revelation of god without loosing the precise meaning in the process. It also means there is no room for interpretation. It is basically literal.

I can go on but I will not because the forum rules would not allow me to go on and this is not a forum for it.

solarz said:

The problem with a military defeat of ISIS is that no one knows what else will spring up in their place. Obama's surge decimated al-Qaida, but gave room for ISIS to grow. Destroy ISIS and maybe we'll just see yet another fundamentalist organization arise.

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Exactly, the core problem is the instability of the region and there is no military solution to that. A worse alternative group would be a amalgamation of AQ and ISIS without their doctrinal disagreements.

solarz said:

So I guess you don't think Richard the Lionheart, the Knights Templar and half-a-dozen Popes, from Urban II to Innocent III, were Christians?

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I am not offended by such questions because they are reasonable questions when they are viewed from outside the Christian worldview. There are actually two distinct issues that are raised; (i) what is a Christian; and (ii) the acts of the crusades.

A Christian simply means a follower of Christ. The simplicity of the Gospel is that Christ died for humanity and whoever believes in Him and follows Him have life eternal. So in essence it is a personal relationship between the individual and Christ. As Christians, our salvation is based on what Christ did on the cross and not what we can do for Him e.g. crusades or such acts. So to the question whether the Popes of the world are Christians is between God and the individual. However if they say they are followers of Christ but do bot follow the teachings of Christ then one will have to question their faith; motive and intentions behind their actions; e.g. like that of the crusades. The crusades might have started off with good intention (not necessarily good theological grounding) but is not a reflection of Christ's teachings - period.

shen said:

Exactly, the core problem is the instability of the region and there is no military solution to that. A worse alternative group would be a amalgamation of AQ and ISIS without their doctrinal disagreements.

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In retrospect, Bush senior made the right call in not pursuing Saddam all the way because the rationale was not to destabilise the region. Currently the idea of going after Assad in my view is a bad idea for the same reason. Unfortunately the Middle East is a region that needs strong man to govern.

Brumby said:

The problem is if you read typical postings that don't understand the religion you won't understand the issue. You first of all need to understand how the Koran is derived. The Koran to Muslims is the direct revelation of "god". That is the reason why translation is not acceptable because you can't translate the direct revelation of god without loosing the precise meaning in the process. It also means there is no room for interpretation. It is basically literal.

I can go on but I will not because the forum rules would not allow me to go on and this is not a forum for it.

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What is relevant from a religious academic POV is not necessarily relevant from a policy perspective. Of course we have to understand the beliefs of ISIS in order to defeat them. But the question of whether or not ISIS is Muslim doesn't need to answered with academic rigor because there is only one possible policy, we can't and won't go to war against the entire Islamic world. Therefore that question is irrelevant.

The Koran may be the direct revelation of god, but that it is also vague, cryptic and contradictory in sections, like all holy books. So there are plenty of room for interpretation, which Islamic scholars have been doing to centuries.

Brumby said:

In retrospect, Bush senior made the right call in not pursuing Saddam all the way because the rationale was not to destabilise the region. Currently the idea of going after Assad in my view is a bad idea for the same reason. Unfortunately the Middle East is a region that needs strong man to govern.

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well, Assad clearly is not strong enough.

shen said:

What is relevant from a religious academic POV is not necessarily relevant from a policy perspective. Of course we have to understand the beliefs of ISIS in order to defeat them. But the question of whether or not ISIS is Muslim doesn't need to answered with academic rigor because there is only one possible policy, we can't and won't go to war against the entire Islamic world. Therefore that question is irrelevant.

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However the source of the problem is still the same when a minority group feel compelled to act it out. The policy and the counter force are the religious leaders themselves but it is very difficult to argue against what is written within the religious text. That is the reason why all you will ever get is the standard feeble response. A solution is always traced to source.

shen said:

The Koran may be the direct revelation of god, but that it is also vague, cryptic and contradictory in sections, like all holy books. So there are plenty of room for interpretation, which Islamic scholars have been doing to centuries.

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It doesn't help that the text cannot be translated and so there are the majority that are dependent on the minority for the teachings. This is somewhat like when the Bible was only in Latin and teachings were adulterated. There is however one other very important factor that I cannot discuss.

I will end here because I probably have said too much on this subject.

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Speaking to the Senate Armed Services Committee, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper in Turkey that was allowing ISIS to grow and bring in recruits from abroad.

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For $25, wannabe ISIS militants cross from Turkey into Syria
Turkey's 500-mile border with Syria remains permeable, serving as a "jihadi highway" for wannabe fighters, in the control of Turkish criminal gangs and border guards that can easily be bribed for a rather insignificant sum of money.
Jasim Qalthim, one of many Turkish smugglers, told the Huffington Post that the Turks "could make it [smuggling] harder if they wanted."

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All It Takes To Cross From Turkey To ISIS-Held Syria Is $25
Despite Turkey’s insistence that it’s doing all it can to secure the 500-mile-long border, smugglers, fighters and refugees say that Turkish criminal gangs and bribed Turkish paramilitary police have created an environment where anyone can cross into Syria, for a price.

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“When [the Turks] close one area, they open up another,” Jasim Qalthim, a 30-year-old smuggler in this Turkish border town of Karkemish, told The WorldPost.
Some smugglers “buy” a particular section of the border for a half an hour at a time from an Islamic State “emir,” or prince, who controls the border guards, he says.

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Turkey and US agree to train and arm Syrian rebels
in fight against Isis (That's ridiculous.)
and the United States signed an agreement Thursday to train and arm Syrian rebels fighting the Islamic State group, said the US embassy in Ankara.

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shen said:

...
As for the last part where the author point out that the so called "quietist" Salafists may be an ideological counter to ISIS. I think is an interesting point worthy of consideration.
here is an article on that subject.

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This overall concept is wishful thinking and inertia for staying the course on the part of those who buy into maintaining the Saudi line or strategy, perhaps learning the wrong lessons from what happened to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, the development of political Islam in Turkey, and even how Israel manages the Judaic extremist segment of its population.

Let's be clear that firsthand political activism, making a difference, being independent by creating a "new land", are as much of a major attraction to ISIS for its young supporters as religious "idealism". Not coincidentally the same age demographic who were behind the Arab Spring which was against all political old guards: elected, military strongmen, and monarchies alike. The only difference was how different countries managed to, or didn't, suppress, undermine, co-opt, or actually provide better opportunities for their youths.

Let's also understand that this should be an expected historical social evolution for the region where democratic republics, military strongmen, and monarchies alike have been toppled by, or rely on, foreign patronage to a great extent, and more importantly few of which have been able to provide its youth with the societal achievements and opportunities (or just personal wealth in the case of oil state handouts) commensurate with the political adherence demanded and the natural social pride in their heritage.

It is logical then that theocracy, the only political model not having had its turn and disappointed the Sunni populace of the region in modern times is now taking up the mantle. For the religious Sunni this ironically means the sole longstanding example of Iran despite its shortcomings, the encouraging position of political Islamists in Turkey tempered by the fate of the overall non-violent Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and elsewhere. The above examples, the violent nature of revolutions, and the myriad policies facilitating violence by states in the region and foreign powers practically guaranteed the emergence of a Sunni theocracy attempt resembling IS.

So what can we, as in the US, do about it now? Change course! Like it or not an unsuppressed Muslim Brotherhood and the Turkish Islamist parties are the most benign and appealing alternative models respectively for those targeted by the IS and those supporting the IS. Making these alternatives worthier to fight for than the IS is the most constructive way forward, anything else is just holding down the lid on a pot already boiling over.

The best way to counter the ISIS threat is to support existing stable governments in the region. ISIS thrives on political chaos, so any regime destabilization will be to their advantage. There is no doubt that the removal of Gaddafi helped ISIS immensely, likewise with the Syrian insurgency.