ISIS/ISIL conflict in Syria/Iraq (No OpEd, No Politics)

The Turkish downing of the Russian aircraft which I mentioned above, is a serious, serious situation.

We need to wait for more news. We do not know if it was ground based missiles or F-16s that did this...if it happened.

A few days ago a Russian aircraft violated Turkish air space and they warned the Russians. Apparently they were only giving out onw warning.

But any major response against Turkey would be an attack on a NATO nation.

Putin will have to be very measured in how he responds. Best if he simply kept his aircraft away from the Turkish border and worked with the US and Turkey to handle any ISIS Attacks in that area.

I hope it moves towards that type of response...but I am not holding my breath.

Jura said:

I quickly searched Russian Internet right now; found nothing.
(just saying ... it might mean nothing, of course)

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I honestly hope it is a mistake.

I would only consider the trustworthiness of news about "the incident" if it is from either major Turkish or Russian news outlet.

If the shot down plane was a MiG 29, then it's probably SAF.

I was under the impression that the only fighters with the Russian expeditionary force are all Sukhois (24, 25, 30 and 34).

Jeff Head said:

Daily Mail and UK Express (and others) reporting that Turkey has show down a Russian Jet that crossed into their air space.

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If true, this is a very serious development. Turkey is a member of NATO, any attack on Turkey could result in a much more serious conflict.

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There seems to be nothing on the net about this and the Daily Fail and Express are really just tabloids with pretensions. There seem to be a lot of briefings attributed to anonymous officials etc and we know from experience that these are not very hard currency.

Such an event would be serious and it would be an event that interrupted TV broadcasts.
The only explosion in Turkey is the Ankara bombing of the pro Kurdish party peace march.

I have also read in a few places now the interesting and rather critical caveat regarding the violations of "Turkish" Airspace (perhaps on this very site) that this was creative journalism that referred to the 5 miles Air Exclusion zone in Syria that the Turks established in 2012.
This means that what has been challenged is the Turkish exclusion zone and Turkish Air presence in Syria rather than actual crossing of Russian aircraft into Turkey (albeit maybe for a few seconds). This version makes far better sense of the stories rather than the more misleading interpretations being broadcast by the media.
I further suspect that any loud explosions near the Turkish/Syrian border would be a Russian Air Raid against Terrorist facilities previously considered safe in the exclusion zone.

The raids do seem to have allowed the Syrian government forces to advance and the following link to RT contains a video report from recently liberated villages. Mildly graphic content but has been blurred out.

“So people say, ‘Okay, we cede Syria to Iran, Hizbollah and Russia,’ or we feel we need to be involved in this game so we can continue to have a hope of countering ISIL and having enough leverage to influence the search for a political solution.”
So the purpose is not defeating ISIL but "continue to have a hope of countering it" to have a seat at the table. While the purpose of the Russians and Iranians is to destroy all terrorist organizations including especially Al Qaeda and ISIL.
It reminds one of the need to maintain the Palestinian peace process, not to achieve peace for the Palestinians and the Israelis.

SampanViking said:

I have also read in a few places now the interesting and rather critical caveat regarding the violations of "Turkish" Airspace (perhaps on this very site) that this was creative journalism that referred to the 5 miles Air Exclusion zone in Syria that the Turks established in 2012.

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I coped a post from the blog of Ambassador Bhadrakumar saying this.

I suppose MiG-29 has too short a range to be sent to Syria by the Russian air force.

Vian Dakhil arrives in Britain despite
huge price on her head

Vian Dakhil has dedicated her life to rescuing victims of gang rape, torture and kidnapping in her Iraq homeland by Daesh low life criminals.

Vian Dakhil has dedicated her life to rescuing victims of the genocide of the Yazidi minority carried out by Daesh Dajjal.

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Sorry Greenest GDP but graphic content has been deleted. This is a family orientated forum so always be very careful about the images you post on the public board.
You can provide links but do make sure that they are suitably labelled as graphic.
SampanViking - Super Moderator

PanAsian said:

Where did you get that? I have never read anywhere that they are not supposed to fight the Syrian government.

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For much of the past year, U.S. military officials

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to get the Pentagon’s original training program up and running. Under the initial plan, the military vetted individual Syrians, took them out of the country and put them through a weeks-long training course in Turkey or Jordan.

But qualified candidates have been hard to find — especially given a U.S. requirement that they fight only the Islamic State and not the Assad regime — and even harder to track once they have returned to Syria. Fewer than 200 fighters have been trained.

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tphuang said:

4 hit a different country. They missed so bad that they ended up in another country! How embarrassing is that for Russia manufacturers. Do you honestly believe that the 22 that landed in the correct country all hit the correct targets? The Russian weapons are not very accurate.

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I am basing my view on news report and so far I have not seen any that suggest the strike is a failure in terms of targets and accuracy (aside from the 4 that landed in Iran). A 80 to 85 % PA is consistent with American results in the past (based on a CSBA study which I can quote to you) and that appears to be what the Russians have delivered. If you think the recent strike is a failure, I would like to see some objective evidence.

tphuang said:

There is a reason why China haven't bought them since the Su-30s.

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That can include Chinese advances in tech. capability that is no longer dependent on the Russians

tphuang said:

By your measure, the Turkish military could also launch a bunch of missiles into Syria and probably actually have higher accuracy, because they would actually be using Western rather than Russian weapons. But they are not doing it. It's not incumbent on America to do everything.

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I don't believe anyone is contending the US or its allies with similar equipment cannot achieve the same of better. This has never been the context of the conversation and for some strange reason it seems that way for you.

tphuang said:

All this has shown is that Russia has a second rate military which will continue to decline over time.

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You are entitled to your opinion on the Russian military. It is not for me to contest or defend the Russians.

tphuang said:

Also, you don't really need this particular Russian intervention to know that a third rate military can park a vessel 200 nm away and hit another country. Remember the C-802 strike on INS Hanit? Anyone with limited resource know that you have to go through asymmetrical warfare. But if you want the ability to hit anywhere in foreign contested waters, that certainly won't do it. In the end of the day, each country's navy knows what they need for their strategic goals and nothing Russia demonstrate here is going to tell them anything new. There is a reason why all these countries have been buying Russian and Chinese anti-ship missiles to put on their little ships. They've known this all along.

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There is a difference between claims in a marketing brochure and demonstration of capability in a live situation. Knowing and proof can be significant divide.

tphuang said:

On another note, anytime that US goes into this kind of conflict, American tax payers are the ones paying for the cost of operation in the end. So while this may not cost you anything, but it will cost me.

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My beef is with the Obama policy on Syria which I considered it flaw besides being a half measured approach. My view is either the administration fully engages or completely stay out of the picture. You may not be aware but Australia is fully engaged in airstrikes against ISIL. I think outside of the US, Australia probably has the most air assets tied up
fighting ISIL in Iraq.