ISIS/ISIL conflict in Syria/Iraq (No OpEd, No Politics)

Miragedriver

Miragedriver

Brigadier
VQzACHQ.jpg

Thousands of Iraqi soldiers take part in a training exercise led by the Spanish Army and under the guidance of the US military in the Basmaya camp in the Iraqi capital Baghdad
Picture: ALI AL-SAADI/AFP/Getty Images


Back to bottling my Grenache
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Iraq right now reminds me of China in the late-Qing, early-Republican period. It is a nation that has been ravaged by foreign powers, to a point that the so-called government is incapable of inspiring leadership. Its official military force has been humiliated so often that it is riddled with corruption and completely combat ineffective.

The Shiite militia are like the warlord forces during that period. Some of them, under capable leadership, were far more effective. Yuan Shikai, for example, had a personal army that was pretty much the only combat capable army in China at the time, despite various attempts to reform the "banner armies".
 
kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
solarz said:
Iraq right now reminds me of China in the late-Qing, early-Republican period. It is a nation that has been ravaged by foreign powers, to a point that the so-called government is incapable of inspiring leadership. Its official military force has been humiliated so often that it is riddled with corruption and completely combat ineffective.

The Shiite militia are like the warlord forces during that period. Some of them, under capable leadership, were far more effective. Yuan Shikai, for example, had a personal army that was pretty much the only combat capable army in China at the time, despite various attempts to reform the "banner armies".
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All true except one more thing. The warlords of China never did have this humongous elephant in the room which prevents total unity. Those Chinese warlords never had to deal much with religious and deep seated tribal customs and beliefs that permeates into every aspect of the peoples' lives for hundreds of years prior.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
kwaigonegin said:
All true except one more thing. The warlords of China never did have this humongous elephant in the room which prevents total unity. Those Chinese warlords never had to deal much with religious and deep seated tribal customs and beliefs that permeates into every aspect of the peoples' lives for hundreds of years prior.
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Actually, China did: the Han-Manchu division. Sun Zhongshan (Yat-sen) even used this divide to campaign for his Republic.

However, I don't believe the sunni-shia divide is the real reason preventing Iraq's unity. Iraq under Saddam Hussein never experienced any sectarian clashes.

Iraq's breakdown has been a decade in the making. The current sunni-shia divide is pretty similar to local communities being distrustful of a dishonest, nepotist, and corruption-riddled central government.
 
kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
solarz said:
Actually, China did: the Han-Manchu division. Sun Zhongshan (Yat-sen) even used this divide to campaign for his Republic.

However, I don't believe the sunni-shia divide is the real reason preventing Iraq's unity. Iraq under Saddam Hussein never experienced any sectarian clashes.

Iraq's breakdown has been a decade in the making. The current sunni-shia divide is pretty similar to local communities being distrustful of a dishonest, nepotist, and corruption-riddled central government.
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In my earlier posts I mentioned those very reasons. The ME at this point in history needs a strong arm dictator like saddam, Assad etc to keep things in check. W/O a brutal dictator the tribal devide and sectarian violence easily resurfaces like what we're seeing now.

And it's a lot more than just Sunni, Shia etc. You have the Kurds, alawites etc and within those main sects there are further divide in tribal beliefs and customs that are unquie to a specific region, clans, towns etc. Right now the primary actors that are primarily causing the violence is the Wahabi sect/teachings within the Sunni religion. You throw in politics, power struggle, greed etc into the mix you get what we're seeing in the news everyday.

Like I said it's choosing the lesser of 2 evils.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
The Issue is Iraq never stabilized, During Sadam's reign he kept the nations internal issues at bay with the Power of the Kalashnikov,The Hind and Chemical weapons. When his power started to Wain in the post Gulf war he did have some uprisings especially among the Kurds who managed to use it to establish independent enclaves.

Iraq and Syria were fictional nations created by treaty merging randomized blocks of tribes and sects into a neat set of lines. now they are breaking down. The Kurds have controlled sections and have a defecto government in northern Iraq, ISIL has wedged between them and Iraqi government even if a New Strong man came in today I do not believe The old boarders can be recreated at best if a power player did emerge they might be able to knock ISIL back into Syria but that would demand a massive restructuring of the Iraqi Army.
The Iraqi Army had the numbers and tech to win but they could not mobilize. There was no Command. A Army with out a Command is no army at all.
 
kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
TerraN_EmpirE said:
The Issue is Iraq never stabilized, During Sadam's reign he kept the nations internal issues at bay with the Power of the Kalashnikov,The Hind and Chemical weapons. When his power started to Wain in the post Gulf war he did have some uprisings especially among the Kurds who managed to use it to establish independent enclaves.

Iraq and Syria were fictional nations created by treaty merging randomized blocks of tribes and sects into a neat set of lines. now they are breaking down. The Kurds have controlled sections and have a defecto government in northern Iraq, ISIL has wedged between them and Iraqi government even if a New Strong man came in today I do not believe The old boarders can be recreated at best if a power player did emerge they might be able to knock ISIL back into Syria but that would demand a massive restructuring of the Iraqi Army.
The Iraqi Army had the numbers and tech to win but they could not mobilize. There was no Command. A Army with out a Command is no army at all.
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You peel those pieces away and at the end of the day the fault lies within the earlier European conquest. I blame the British empire the most lol....
Most of the problems we see today in the me and large part of Africa is due to the colonial conquer and divide strategies on the european powers in the 18th and 19th century. You cut up the lands, divvy them amongnts the different sects who has lived there hundreds if not thousands of years, tribes etc and the come independence you expect them all to sing kumaya and live happily ever after.
The empire building days of the British, French and to a certain extent the Dutch, Belgium and Portuguese are the primary reason why we have some much sectarian and religious wars in me and Africa today.

If you guys remember the Rwandan massacres between Hutus and Tutsi s.. That animosity can be traced back to the Belgians and Germans few hundred years back dividing up tribes, giving powers to certain ones, dividing land etc.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
TerraN_EmpirE said:
The Issue is Iraq never stabilized, During Sadam's reign he kept the nations internal issues at bay with the Power of the Kalashnikov,The Hind and Chemical weapons. When his power started to Wain in the post Gulf war he did have some uprisings especially among the Kurds who managed to use it to establish independent enclaves.

Iraq and Syria were fictional nations created by treaty merging randomized blocks of tribes and sects into a neat set of lines. now they are breaking down. The Kurds have controlled sections and have a defecto government in northern Iraq, ISIL has wedged between them and Iraqi government even if a New Strong man came in today I do not believe The old boarders can be recreated at best if a power player did emerge they might be able to knock ISIL back into Syria but that would demand a massive restructuring of the Iraqi Army.
The Iraqi Army had the numbers and tech to win but they could not mobilize. There was no Command. A Army with out a Command is no army at all.
Click to expand...

I would say that is true of any nation in existence, or that ever existed. The only difference is that some of them were able to maintain the iron grip long enough to create cultural cohesion.
 
Equation

Equation

Lieutenant General
I believe for the most part ISIS fighters have nothing to lose and have something to fight for as in their view of religion. That's why they fight so hard against those Iraqi regulars whose in the armed services for the pay check. Sure there are some great and brave Iraqi fighters but they are too far and in between (same goes to their officers corps and NCO).
 
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