Is the PLA vulnerable to pre-emptive strike now and in the near future?

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A Silkworm flew past the US navy and hit a Iraqi tanker.

A Silkworm missile was also shot down by HMS Gloucester using her Sea Dart missile system, which to be quite honest sucks by modern US/European anti-missile standards. Now are you really telling me that Sea Dart is better than what the USN had at the time? :p

A licensed produced Chinese anti-ship missile hit a Western designed Israeli stealth ship.

Oh God, not this drivel again.....

Yes, it hit the ship, but we don't know the systems were on/the operator was doing his job properly. Also the missile was launched from a position very close by, something which would not be replicated during a naval conflict with the USN. I believe Popeye (sorry, big-guy, if I get this wrong) said he thought it was down to "human error" rather than technological inadequacies.

Anti-missile defenses aren't up to the hype especially yours.

When Chinese missiles break though an AEGIS screen, I'll believe you.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Yeah a Silkworm did fly past the US Navy protecting Iraqi shipping during the Iran/ Iraq war. I just read a post in Key Aviation about how Aegis could shoot down missiles back in 1975. How come not this one.

What tired excuses are you going to make for the Sa'ar 5 getting hit? Key word: "getting hit." So why the cover-up if it was nothing. A ship designed for that battlefield and the reputation of the Israeli military as being the most tested and experienced in the world... Now all of the sudden it comes down to "they didn't think about it?" Interesting that Israeli intelligence knew exactly the missile and that it came from Iran right when the incident happened but didn't know it literally right before? They knew it before and should've been prepared for it and most likely were yet the ship was still hit.

Well apparently a Seersucker did breakthrough Aegis since the slow huge beast wasn't seen flying over water by it, patriot and AWACs. Don't give that excuse like I've heard before that Aegis can only see what's being shot at it.
 
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D

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Yeah a Silkworm did fly past the US Navy protecting Iraqi shipping during the Iran/ Iraq war. I just read a post in Key Aviation about how Aegis could shoot down missiles back in 1975. How come not this one.

You ignored my point. How could Sea Dart, which is completely shit, take down a Silkworm? Are you telling me its better than what the Americans had in the early 1990s?

I'll say it again in case you missed it. SEA DART. It's a complete joke over here - Seawolf was more successful in the Falklands, despite the fact it was designed to protect individual ships and not provide area cover.

What tired excuses are you going to make for the Sa'ar 5 getting hit?

So you're telling me you know more about Israeli/US naval systems than Popeye? As I said, unless I'm mistaken, he was the one that thought it was down to human error.

Don't give that excuse like I've heard before that Aegis can only see what's being shot at it.

"I've heard, I've heard - blaa-blaa-blaa-blaa-blaa-blaa-blaa-blaa!"

Seriously, if Popeye has something to say about this I'd much prefer to hear it from him, rather than have someone regurgitate xth-hand information.
 
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eecsmaster

Junior Member
FuManChu, what's your area of study? Liberal arts? Because if it is,I'd suggest that you don't delve into complex topics such as missile systems without extensive readings because you simply don't know sh!t.

Sea Dart performed poorly during the Falklands because the RN was still developing tactics. The missile trap failed because the ship armed with Sea Wolve kept blocking Sea Dart FCR's LOS.

Also, have you ever heard of ideal conditions? Of course not. Missiles have performance parameters, and they don't suddenly jump from hit to miss. Ground clutter, ECM, weather, and even the direction of approach of the missile greatly affects the performance of the system. Your blanket categorization of the Sea Dart system should earn you a child's seat in the back row, and a piece of tape over your mouth.
 

Sea Dog

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Seriously, if Popeye has something to say about this I'd much prefer to hear it from him, rather than have someone regurgitate xth-hand information.

Well, I do have experience on Aegis ships. And although I wasn't a weapons guy, I know the systems are about as good as you can get. I have seen the system perform and I doubt anything except a massive barrage of missiles will get through due to alot of factors. And when you combine more than one platform, you get an effective defensive/offensive force multiplier. USN Aegis ships have been certified and have demonstrated hits against sea-skimming supersonic targets in the Pacific. I know for a fact, this system is the best there is. I've seen it. Nothing comes close.

1 Silkworm got through some defenses in that area, true. However, nobody here knows exactly what defensive weapons were in place. And I'm not even sure if any Aegis ships were directly in the area. Nor does anybody know what ROE was established. From what I've heard, it was thought that the missile in question was a UAV, as they were flying a few from a base near that region. Confusion of this sort is not impossible in an area such as this. But if an Aegis ship was present, than I know for sure, without question, that this is probably a true story. An Aegis radar simply wouldn't miss something like a Silkworm. When I was out on a deployment in the Pacific, an Oliver Hazard Perry was firing practice flares quite a distance away from us, and we saw them with no problems. And those flares were lower than what a Silkworm would fly at.

I can't speak for Sea Dart, as I know nothing of it other than popen source information. But Aegis/SM-2/SM-3 combination is something I've seen as something beyond very effective.
 

eecsmaster

Junior Member
I've always wondered just how many missiles the SPY-1 can guide in timeshare mode without a fatal degradation to terminal accuracy.

I actually have some questions regarding the Burke.

1) Burkes have illuminators, so can the PAR guide missiles in terminal phase (illuminating)?

2) If the answer to the above is "no", how many channels can AEGIS provide and how many channels can the illuminator provide?
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
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And you totally ignore everything. Did I ever say the Silkworm was the most advanced thing in the universe. I believe I described the Seersucker as "obsolete." Meaning the Silkworm is an older lesser cousin. Meaning advanced technology couldn't take out an outdated missile.

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And are telling me Popeye has direct information from someone in Israel on this account? If I were you I wouldn't speak for others in here. I haven't been reading all that he's posted latest on the incident, but last I read, he was pretty conservative on the conclusions.

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Thanks for admitting you know nothing since you seem to keep hiding behind BD Popeye. I've pointed out real battlefield incidents. All you have is theories based on numbers and figures on paper and tests conducted in the most favorable of conditions.
 
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Sea Dog

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I've always wondered just how many missiles the SPY-1 can guide in timeshare mode without a fatal degradation to terminal accuracy.

I actually have some questions regarding the Burke.

1) Burkes have illuminators, so can the PAR guide missiles in terminal phase (illuminating)?

2) If the answer to the above is "no", how many channels can AEGIS provide and how many channels can the illuminator provide?

All I can say is that the system provides 24 channels and 6 spare guidance channels. There is time-sharing process between the illuminators, and there are three phases in the missiles flight to intercept. There is also a built in capability to guide missiles from other ships maximizing the use of guidance channels. If totally saturated, it can maximize the uses of all channels. that means control of alot of missiles. That is all. :)

Americanoilman said:
All of you widely underestimate the harpoon as an ASM,

I don't think people here underestimate Harpoon's effectiveness. But the mistake is made that long-range is an end-all in missile performance. Sensor performance is missed, and also adequate C4I. I can tell you for sure that range considerations are not the end all. In naval warfare, you don't point a radar and fire. Radar performance degrades with distance and sea conditions. The ocean is a big place. And if you actually detect someone beyond 100 Km, you have to identify the target so you're not firing at a cruise ship, merchant, or even one of your own. And then you have to track it and develop a firing solution. I don't think alot of people understand how involved this process really is. And the further out you fire an ASM, the less likely it will actually hit it's target especially if that target has effective defenses and a challenging ECM environment and probably knows something is trying to target it.

Trust me when I say there is a reason the range requirements haven't changed for Harpoon. Harpoon has plenty of range to deal with current threats. If we ever needed a dedicated solution to confront another naval power with a 250-300 Km ranging capability, we could simply bring back the TASM in sufficient numbers at 470 Km. No problems. But trust me, this is not needed. There is simply no need for it at all. There currently is no naval power with a decent ability to detect, track, localize, and engage USN ships at that kind of distance. An Arleigh Burke can see and maneuver for the kill itself if part of a SAG. And because Surface Action is built on team tactics, this is where USN strength lies in it's Aegis offensive ASuW role. But let me tell you AOM, even though Aegis ships can go offensive and pretty much eliminate everyone else, they are there for one purpose.....defense. They are built to defend that carrier asset. That's how they'll be used primarily in any confrontation. Of course they'll do deep strike warfare in conjunction with this. But still, the carrier can do as much damage as a grouping of Aegis ships.
 
D

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And you totally ignore everything.

And you still haven't told me why Sea Dart was able to do what the USN couldn't.

Thanks for admitting you know nothing since you seem to keep hiding behind BD Popeye.

OMG, I'm not such an arrogant arsehole that I presume to know everything about something I never worked on! Mace, I haven't been in the USN, so why the hell are you surprised I might be interested in what someone who was might have to say?
 

Gollevainen

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I've sick of repating myself and giving "just one more warnings" so this thread is now closed. I wont issue warnings and as someone already banned the main architect of this thread so you got from the hook like a bunch of dogs...
 
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