Is the Aircraft Carrier as a Capital Ship already obsolete?

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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The Aircraft Carrier has become the dominant visible symbol of power for the last 60 years (The nuke of course is the real symbol of power in the modern world). My question though is whether or not the Aircraft Carrier, like the Super Dreadnaught before it, is an empty symbol and long since rendered obsolete my technology as the next major conflict will probably prove.

Nations need powerful National symbols and large ships have always been a preferred mechanism to achieve this. At the beginning of WW2 this symbol was the Battleship, but by the end their weaknesses had been all to easily exposed and their nemesis; The Aircraft Carrier, claimed the crown.

Like Battleships, Carriers look great in Peacetime as they majestically plough the Oceans of the world and are useful for dealing with the odd “uppity fuzzywuzzy”: Gunship diplomacy with a longer range and better accuracy.

WW2 however saw the last Carrier on Carrier conflict and this was over 60 years ago. Since then , no Carrier has been seriously challenged.

Carriers were used extensively in the 2 Persian Gulf Wars against Iraq, but these were assaults of overwhelming magnitude and augmented by many Locally Land based aircraft and long distance Heavy Bombers. In terms of how a Carrier would cope in an evenly matched conflict, it told us very little.

The closest to a real test has been the Falklands in 1982. Even this is now 25 years ago, which is an entire Military Generation.

Although the British Carriers were small, they carried an excellent Aircraft in the Harrier and a superb missile in the Sidewinder, whilst the enemy they faced was a slightly better off developing country in South America.

The task of the Carriers beyond the Flag Ship role was to provide Air Cover to the Task Force Ships and to generally enforce the Aerial Exclusion component of the Total Exclusion Zone and this is what they did to the best of their ability.

They were however stretched and Air Security was routinely breached and the Task Force lost a significant number of ships to Argentine Bombs and Missiles.

Lets quickly look at what the Power Projecting Carrier base aircraft did not do when acting stand alone under not wholly unequal circumstances.

They did not launch Air Strikes against the Argentine Mainland.

They did not launch many Bombing Missions against Argentine Positions on the Falklands

They provided no meaningful Ground Support Role to the Infantry and Marines retaking the Islands.

Part of this was undoubtedly due to the limits of numbers and type of Aircraft available from these small Carriers, but had they instead been Full Sized Fixed Wing Carriers, would there have been much difference?

Well, I think not, except the Air Defence Role would have been carried out more effectively, with heavier Argentine Losses and less Ships damaged or sunk. In terms of long range raids, local raids and ground support, I doubt that there would have been anything more than a token increase.

This then is the rub. I contend that just as with the Battleships, when a real war starts the Carriers will quickly have their weaknesses exposed and after some humiliating losses, will spend much of their time in Port, classed as to vulnerable and too valuable to be let out to sea.

I also think that the Carrier is soon to share the fate of the Battleships; as Demonstrated by the Missouri class, demoted to almost auxiliary status within a Task or Invasion Fleet. The Battleships simply became floating support Artillery Batteries, whilst Carriers will simply be there to provide Air Protection to the ships and Landing Operations. True Offensive Air Power to come from a distance or to be installed in newly captured territory.

That said, once the true nature and value of Carriers is understood I think we will see some rapid evolution of the class, away from the Pompous and overblown Giants of today and towards some lighter, faster, leaner and meaner ships that better undertake the vital job, that they will still be tasked to do.

I suspect some Countries already understand this, and whilst an admission of this would be too politically embarrassing to the US, as a nation that publicly defines its power through its Carriers. Other nations not already committed, such as China, seem in no great hurry to build ships of this type, or to give Carriers much priority in their Naval strategies.
 

Finn McCool

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They did not launch many Bombing Missions against Argentine Positions on the Falklands.

They provided no meaningful Ground Support Role to the Infantry and Marines retaking the Islands.

Well they bombed Stanley Airport well enough to take the Pucaras (I think that's what those peculiar aircraft are called) effectively out of the war. And they provided air strikes that turned the tide at the Battle of Goose Green. Honestly what do you expect of the Harriers? There weren't enough to consistantly be lauching air strikes and protecting the fleet at the same time and the ski jump severaly limited their payload.

Lastly, they were prohibited from striking the Argentinian mainland for political reasons, and again because they did not have the numbers.
 

Obi Wan Russell

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Well they bombed Stanley Airport well enough to take the Pucaras (I think that's what those peculiar aircraft are called) effectively out of the war. And they provided air strikes that turned the tide at the Battle of Goose Green. Honestly what do you expect of the Harriers? There weren't enough to consistantly be lauching air strikes and protecting the fleet at the same time and the ski jump severaly limited their payload.

Lastly, they were prohibited from striking the Argentinian mainland for political reasons, and again because they did not have the numbers.

The Ski jump significantly INCREASES a Harrier's payload and range, ie they can launch with max fuel and weapons. As the RN then and now had/has no air to air tanker capability (lost when 809NAS decommissioned it's Buccaneers in 1978) the SHARs can only fight with what they can lift off the deck with in the first place. The primary limiting factors in the Falklands war were the lack of AEW cover and the overall lack of numbers of Harriers. Had the AEW Sea King been available in april 82 then the latter problem would have been partially redressed too, as AEW is a force multiplyer and would have allowed the SHARs to be used more effectively, thus freeing up more aircraft for strike missions in support of the land battle. The lesson therefore is that more aircraft aboard larger carriers is the answer, and that is what we are getting.

As to the suggestion that aircraft carriers are obsolete, well the Battleship became obsolete for two reasons. It's offensive weaponry (Big guns) only had an effective range of about 25 miles, whereas the carrier could strike targets 200+ miles away (much further now), and it's defensive weaponry (AA guns) could not provide as effective a defence as a carriers CAP aircraft (ie the threat would be intercepted much further away from the ship, so the vessel in question would be less likely to be damaged). As aircraft are the primary offensive and defensive armament of the carrier then the carrier will not become obsolete until aircraft become obsolete, at which point we can disband the worlds air forces and save a fortune that way! A little extreme I know but the point is still valid. Any weapon that can destroy a carrier can destroy any other naval vessel so arguments about 'How do you sink a carrier' actually apply to all warships, thus they are arguments about the future of naval forces themselves. The carrier remains the best, most versatile, most flexible weapon system in existence, a jack of all trades and master of most, and will remain so for the forseeable future (ie at least the next fifty years and beyond) simply because there is nothing on the horizon that will supercede it.:nono:
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
If I were a tin-pot dictator today, I would suddenly pay attention if someone planted a aircraft carrier fleet near my shore. An aircraft carrier is the ultimate expression of conventional military power; it states I have the resources, the capability of placing, and backing up a very powerful warship off your coast that can seriously screw you up big time if you piss me off. It is the ultimate expression of "You don't want to mess with me, so pay attention or go back into your hidey hole."
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
The Ski jump significantly INCREASES a Harrier's payload and range, ie they can launch with max fuel and weapons.

Sorry, I should have made myself more clear. I was trying to say that the STOVL Carriers of the Royal Navy makes it difficult to carry aircraft with a heavy strike capability. And the Harrier itself is not really intended for the strike role and did the best it could; you can't expect the Harrier to be acting like an F/A-18, or a Royal Navy CBG to acting lie one of their American counterparts. Really the Harriers did very well; they performed admirably against the Argentine Air Force which was the first priority, they did reasonably well in the ground strike role, but it was the second priority.


As to the suggestion that aircraft carriers are obsolete, well the Battleship became obsolete for two reasons. It's offensive weaponry (Big guns) only had an effective range of about 25 miles, whereas the carrier could strike targets 200+ miles away (much further now), and it's defensive weaponry (AA guns) could not provide as effective a defence as a carriers CAP aircraft (ie the threat would be intercepted much further away from the ship, so the vessel in question would be less likely to be damaged). As aircraft are the primary offensive and defensive armament of the carrier then the carrier will not become obsolete until aircraft become obsolete, at which point we can disband the worlds air forces and save a fortune that way! A little extreme I know but the point is still valid. Any weapon that can destroy a carrier can destroy any other naval vessel so arguments about 'How do you sink a carrier' actually apply to all warships, thus they are arguments about the future of naval forces themselves. The carrier remains the best, most versatile, most flexible weapon system in existence, a jack of all trades and master of most, and will remain so for the forseeable future (ie at least the next fifty years and beyond) simply because there is nothing on the horizon that will supercede it.:nono:

To take a grain of what you said and simplify it: The carrier is not obsolete because it can hit farther than any other ship and it can defend itself at a greater range then any other ship too.
 
D

Deleted member 675

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Although the British Carriers were small, they carried an excellent Aircraft in the Harrier and a superb missile in the Sidewinder, whilst the enemy they faced was a slightly better off developing country in South America.

You're forgetting that Argentina was equipped with numerous jets and a number of Exocet missiles, amongst other things. AAW protection on board the escorts was also somewhat limited, so the carrier-borne harriers had a lot of responsibility for fleet protection. These days the escorts (certain the new Type-45 destroyers) would be able to take much more of the slack, not putting so much pressure on the carriers' aircraft and allow them to function better.

had they instead been Full Sized Fixed Wing Carriers, would there have been much difference?

Almost assuredly. That said the carriers certainly were the reason the taskforce got to the Falklands at all. Otherwise the Argentine Air-force would not have placed the emphasis they did on trying to sink them. A handful of harriers made a real difference in the end.

I contend that just as with the Battleships, when a real war starts the Carriers will quickly have their weaknesses exposed and after some humiliating losses, will spend much of their time in Port, classed as to vulnerable and too valuable to be let out to sea.

I disagree. Properly escorted (i.e. not trying to scrimp with just one AAW destroyer) they should be able to defend themselves against attack.

True Offensive Air Power to come from a distance or to be installed in newly captured territory.

What if there is no "newly captured territory"? You wouldn't want to go to war with a state to be able to fight another one.

away from the Pompous and overblown Giants of today and towards some lighter, faster, leaner and meaner ships that better undertake the vital job, that they will still be tasked to do

So what you're saying is you think the trend for aircraft carriers is ones that carry less aircraft. Although it is possible that in the future the supercarrier is reduced in size somewhat, I don't think we will be seeing much of a reduction in size. The airwing one is able to carry is very important - reduce it too much and the power-projection capability (as well as that of the carrier group to defend itself) is seriously compromised.

Personally I'm very happy to see the Royal Navy ordering two 65,000 tonne ships. It will be a massive evolution of their capabilities.

Other nations not already committed, such as China, seem in no great hurry to build ships of this type, or to give Carriers much priority in their Naval strategies.

Really? Tphuang (and others) would disagree with you. He said a few days ago that China has already ordered parts for an indigenous carrier project. He also cited a Kanwa report that said China has got an agreement from Russia to supply four-deck landing systems and that an official announcement would be made after the Olympics.
 

Clouded Leopard

Junior Member
As cruise/strike missiles become better and better, and ships like the DDX also get their railguns which can strike 500 miles away, it is indeed conceivable that the aircraft carrier, with its wing of strike aircraft, would diminish in importance.


But for the time being I see no diminishing of the strategic value of a CVBG.
 

Obi Wan Russell

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Quote: I contend that just as with the Battleships, when a real war starts the Carriers will quickly have their weaknesses exposed and after some humiliating losses, will spend much of their time in Port, classed as to vulnerable and too valuable to be let out to sea.

I could say the same thing about Tanks, land based aircraft, soldiers (extremely vulnerable, best leave them at home to be on the safe side) or any other weapon system in service today. Nothing is invulnerable, but weapons are there to be used, and not willy nilly either. The CVFs will be far more capable and far better protected (within a Task Force, not just their own defences) than the two CVLs we sent to the Falklands, but we sent them anyway. Armed forces are in the business of risk, minimising their own and maximising the enemy's. The equation will never reach 0% for yourself or 100% for the other side, but it doesn't have to either. All conflicts are a gamble, and you go in with the best hand you can muster or you don't go in at all. When the whole world is simltaneously attacked with completely effective 'Peace Gas Bombs' then the armed forces can pack up and go home but until then we will have to do the best we can with what we can and hop we have done better than the other side. Right now the best weapon system a Navy can operate is a CVSG, and the most expensive thing in the world is to have the second best weapon systme in a conflict. Ask Argentina, ask Iraq, ask the Taliban, etc all of whom chose the second best weapons compared to the west, and duly lost.
 

SampanViking

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I think the most fascinating thing about all of the above answers is that fact that they mirror so closely the arguments given in the 1930's about the continued dominance of the Battleship.

Just to clarify, as maybe some people have missed the point, It is not to say per se, that the Aircraft Carrier is obsolete, but that the Giant Carrier as a Capitol Ship, operating at the Center of its own Carrier Group is Obsolete against a true cutting edge adversary.

The Harriers in the Falklands were stretched to the extreme to perform their Air Defence Missions and even then dozens and dozens of Argentine Aircraft were able to execute bombing raids against the RN. The few missions re-tasked for Ground Attack, were emergencies like those at Goose Green.

I think Finn mentioned no attack on the Argentine Mainland for "Political Considerations". I would suggest rather, that the Mainland Airfields were too far and too dangerous for the Harriers to attack and would have left the Task Force too vulnerable simply from the effects of re-tasking, let alone any actual loss of Aircraft due to enemy action. There were also attacks by special Forces against at least one Argentine Air Base on the Mainland, which rather suggests it was merely tactical consideration that prevented direct Air Strikes.

Bigger Carriers would simply have concentrated in plugging the gaps in the Air Defence and prevented a greater proportion of Argentinian attacks against our ships, with maybe an increase in Ground Attack actions, in support of the Infantry advance.

I think Obi Wan Russel, that to compare a Carrier to a Tank is a little stretched. Tanks are Consumable Tools, whilst Carriers are Capital Equipment. Technically the regular loss of Carrier based Aircraft is an "acceptable" as long as the Carrier remains in place and replacements are able to reach it.

The Battleship became Obsolete, when it was demonstrated that a few small Torpedo/Bomber Airplanes could sink even the heaviest Armoured Behemoth in a matter of minutes.

Likewise today, the rise and spread of missile technology appears to be recreating this situation perfectly. There have been very few real tests between missile and Warship, but those that have occurred have shown; for whatever reason, real cause for concern for the worlds advanced Navies.

Just as Advanced ASM technology is spreading, so are advanced SAM technologies too. I think there are very serious questions to ask about the survivability of Offensive Carrier based aircraft, which if proven as vulnerable as suspected, negates the purpose of such Aircraft and the use of Carriers in this power projection role.

In short if Carrier Based, Deep Strike, Fighter Bombers are now to vulnerable from modern Air Defences and the Carriers themselves too vulnerable from Advanced ASM's then that is a pretty good definition of Obsolescence in the Power Projection role to me.

In WW2, Commanders were largely unperturbed to lose squadrons of Aircraft to sink Capital Battleships (or indeed Carriers). The planes swarmed the Battleships (by then bristling with layered AAA of all classes) until eventually the bombs started to get through. It is frankly incredulous to conclude anything other than a repeat of this situation with saturation missile attacks against Carriers, that come close enough to shore to enable Offensive strike missions to be mounted.

The Carrier has I am sure, a long and illustrious career ahead of it as an Air Protection system for Amphibious Task Forces and Sea Lane Interdiction. It is simply a matter of all concerned, coming to terms with and accepting this.
 

Obi Wan Russell

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Ok, time to demolition another shoddy construction with non existent foundations:
Quote:"Just to clarify, as maybe some people have missed the point, It is not to say per se, that the Aircraft Carrier is obsolete, but that the Giant Carrier as a Capitol Ship, operating at the Center of its own Carrier Group is Obsolete against a true cutting edge adversary.

The Harriers in the Falklands were stretched to the extreme to perform their Air Defence Missions and even then dozens and dozens of Argentine Aircraft were able to execute bombing raids against the RN. The few missions re-tasked for Ground Attack, were emergencies like those at Goose Green."

Well make up your mind are you arguing against Nimitz sized CVNs or small harrier carriers? The first paragraph suggests the former but you follow it with an argument against the latter, as if to invalidate your own point. The Falklans campaign is proof that small caariers are much better than no carriers, but they were lacking in numbers (both hulls and aircraft available) and capabilities (AEW), the latter has at least been addressed with the Sea King ASaC7 and the numbers issue will be addressed with the CVFs and F-35B.

Quote:" think Finn mentioned no attack on the Argentine Mainland for "Political Considerations". I would suggest rather, that the Mainland Airfields were too far and too dangerous for the Harriers to attack and would have left the Task Force too vulnerable simply from the effects of re-tasking, let alone any actual loss of Aircraft due to enemy action. There were also attacks by special Forces against at least one Argentine Air Base on the Mainland, which rather suggests it was merely tactical consideration that prevented direct Air Strikes."

The suggested/threatened attacks on the Argentine mainland were never going to be by harriers, they were to be by RAF Vulcans which, by virtue of being able to hit Stanley could by implication reach almost any mainland air base or Buenos Aires, which was a lot closer to Ascension Island. While no attacks on Argentina itself by Vulcans were planned, the threat was a valid one and resulted in The Argentine air force withdrawing some of it's air defence assets back to the north and out of reach of the Falklands. Thus a percentage of the AAF was 'taken out of the game' at a stroke.

The comparison with the tank was valid, inasmuch as it is considedred the primary weapon system in land warfare but in some quarters is viewed as obsolete, because warfare has moved on and it is no longer relevant to the battles of tomorrow.

Obsolescence is a point of view, highly subjective at that. A musket is obsolete, but in the right hands is as deadly as many modern firearms. The Fairey swordfish torpedo bomber was obsolete bfore it left the drawing board, but was instrumental in the sinking of the Bismark and was still in service at the end of WW2, one carrying out a depth charge attack on a U boat only hours before the German Surrender.

The Battleship became obsolete when something better came along to replace it, but within the parameters of it's design was still highly effective.

Quoote:"Just as Advanced ASM technology is spreading, so are advanced SAM technologies too. I think there are very serious questions to ask about the survivability of Offensive Carrier based aircraft, which if proven as vulnerable as suspected, negates the purpose of such Aircraft and the use of Carriers in this power projection role.

In short if Carrier Based, Deep Strike, Fighter Bombers are now to vulnerable from modern Air Defences and the Carriers themselves too vulnerable from Advanced ASM's then that is a pretty good definition of Obsolescence in the Power Projection role to me."

If so then you have produced an argument against ALL military air power, thus we should save a lot of cash by disbanding the RAF, USAF, Armee d'Air, Luftwaffe etc. Once an aircraft is over enemy territory it's point of origin is irrellevant to those shooting back. Land based aircraft are no better protected than carrier based aircraft in this respect, so your point cannot be held as specifically an anti carrier point. It is an anti military aircraft point.

Quote:"In WW2, Commanders were largely unperturbed to lose squadrons of Aircraft to sink Capital Battleships (or indeed Carriers). The planes swarmed the Battleships (by then bristling with layered AAA of all classes) until eventually the bombs started to get through. It is frankly incredulous to conclude anything other than a repeat of this situation with saturation missile attacks against Carriers, that come close enough to shore to enable Offensive strike missions to be mounted."

Throwing large numbers of pilots at the enemy to be slaughtered certainly isn't going to happen again, that is why we have stealth and stand off weapons so the pilots do not go too deeply into 'harms way', but their missles do.

Conclusion: Big 90,000+ton CVNs cannot be defeated by conventional forces without massive and probably unsustainable losses by the attacking forces, so they try to defeat them with words like obsolete. Small 20,000ton carriers are much less effective than their bigger sisters, but are far more effective than having no carriers at all and should not be dismissed as a supplement to the large deck ships. Asymmetric warfare is the only option left to the enemies of the west now, but this means the carriers are much less vulnerable as Al Quaida has no naval forces and a motor boat with IEDs aboard manned by a religious nut will have a hard time locating a CVSG 100 miles offshore let alone catching up with it when tit is travelling at 30knots surrounded by DDGs and Frigates carrying helos armed with heavy MGs. On the other hand Tanks often find them sellves within grenade throwing distance of insurgents (I know grenades won't hurt a modern MBT but other weapons that are man portable can) so tanks are much more vulnerable to the enemy.

My point is this. Don't call any weapon system obsolete until you can prove their is something better out there to replace it. Large deck carriers are four acres of sovreign territory as ewell defended as possible that can stop a war before it starts simply by it's presence, and that alone justifies their retention. Getting rid of ours in the sixties and seventies sent a signal (amongst other things) that we weren't prepared to fight for our own people or territory, and the Harriers were seen as a joke, window dressing at best. The RAF brass in 81 were openly telling the press that the Invincibles were just something to keep the Admirals happy and give them a saluting platform, with no real fighting value. John Nott paid too much attention to them (he still won't admit he got it wrong even now) and too many people today still buy into this dangerous POV.
 
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