Infantry Combat Equipment (non-firearm): Vests, Body Armor, NVGs, etc.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

It's more a pattern designed to establish an Identity. The claims of IFF fail in low light as very few Night vision systems are designed to show color.

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TerraN_EmpirE said:

First thoughts, are we sure these are new pictures as the PLA issued a MARPAT clone circa 2003-2007.
Second if they are recent then are we sure they are PLA and not PAP? Who have there own patterns.
If no on both then we may have yet another special unit pattern.

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TerraN_EmpirE said:

It's more a pattern designed to establish an Identity. The claims of IFF fail in low light as very few Night vision systems are designed to show color.

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Viktor Jav said:

The Task of securing a beach head goes way beyond the water or sand covered portions. In a real life situation marine units must at least secure a significant portion inland to prevent counter attack and to establish a buffer zone.The whole "Army is right behind" claim ignores the fact that there is not actual way for the Marines to withdraw safely until they pushed back the enemy a comfortable distance away, so they are still obliged to fight along side the Army units as well.
And even the most tiniest of islands in the Pacific has a complete 2 stage biodiversity so to speak, with beaches and then rain forests. Those that don't won't be worth an amphibious assault in the first place.
There is never a good reason why the PLAN Marines adopted such a ridiculous outfit that only works if one is fighting 24/7 in water, and only sea water. While defending it use at this point sound more like sheer stubbornness then any logical reasoning.

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jobjed said:

Until very recently, the PLA Marines were not expected to make it off the beach alive. The reversal of technological and firepower superiority between the PRC and ROC is something that occurred little more than a decade ago. The Army takes over the push inland not because they want to show up the Marines, but because the Marines will be dead or otherwise combat-ineffective. The ingress onto the beach was traditionally the most vulnerable stage of a PLA amphibious operation where the greatest losses will be incurred and hence emphasis was placed on minimising probability of getting hit while in the water, and the camo works pretty well to that end, as can be seen below.

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Viktor Jav said:

Sorry but I don't buy that "not expected to survive" scenario, a unit that is better trained and specifically equipped for a vital task cannot be throw away just as willfully as that. And if the Marines all died off before they can establish a beachhead there is not much point for the Army to come in as they will be slaughtered as well.

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And again, there is little point for the Marines to be dressed up blue because 1) they are not going to be targeted on the water (why shoot those puny targets when you can just sink the entire transport)

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2) In the area where they are expected to fight effectively(or in other words able to shoot back, the beaches and then some more inland), that tone makes them sticks out like a sore thumb.

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Nor does the technological gap between China and Taiwan holds much water in this argument, the most serious gaps lie in between their air force, after that their naval ships. In terms of ground forces Taiwan isn't that much farther ahead then China at any point of time.

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="jobjed, post: 505603, member: 7714"]They won't all die, just most of them. The ROC beach defenders, on the other hand, will actually all be dead. With ROC beach defenders dead, the Army can land and secure the beachhead.

And how can you be sure that all of the beach defenders will be dead then ? That is an awful lot of wishful thinking. And one would certaintly make their job much easier painting themself bright blue like that.

?????????????

I'm just going to let you re-read what you wrote. Specifically, this part: "they are not going to be targeted on the water."

As in that the defenders will have much better things to shoot at, the transports they are in. Not the soldiers riding in them, just so we are clear.

Uhhh, no. That tone is specifically designed for beach fighting. Did you read anything I've written?

Picture this, try wearing a near bright blue shirt on a white to yellow background. One have to be exceptionally optimistic to hope that the enemy would have difficulties spotting them. Either that or the enemy is colour blind to begin with. That is what you are trying to claim here.

PLA troops are at their most vulnerable when they're steaming to the beach. This makes the blue camouflage very necessary. See above picture.

The problem with that picture of yours is that it only portrays half the scenario, first there is the part where the troops have to make it from the ships to the beach. Wearing blue would not help them then because they will be all tuck away on transports, safe and sound. They aren't gonna be swimming a marathon race here. Then there is the second scenario of actually fighting at the beach and pushing the defenders away to establish a safezone for future reinforcement. Wearing blue here will be doubly suicidal for all the obvious reasons.

They are also extremely vulnerable after just getting out of the water. This makes fire-support very important, and it is also important that PLA destroyers and frigates located kilometers away can spot where their troops are so they don't accidentally hit them. This also makes the blue camouflage necessary.

They will also be equally vulnerable at the first few kilometers on the beach wearing those Smurf suits if not more so, and then even more when they hit the tree line. The beach is the less defensible area and is never ever the spot where any reasonable army would feel comfortable in.
And there is not way the PLAN will be parking their frigates and destroyers all right off the beach exposed to every single anti ship weaponry the defenders can throw at them. Fire support via naval and artillery is always non line of sight, that is fact. There maybe some instances of amphibious landing ships providing fire but those counts more as direct fire support of which IFF identification issues is on another level entirely to say the least.

One on one armoured divisions, sure. But the PLA Marines don't have armoured divisions. Their vehicles are thin-skinned and highly vulnerable to anything larger than 7.62mm. The ROC defenders on the beach, with their mortars, .50 cals, field guns, bazookas, light tanks, and fortifications, are in a much more advantageous position. If the PLA Marines were to have a chance of taking the beach, they would've needed to minimise their losses coming in from the sea and maximise the amount of effective fire-support that their navy could've provided them. Both priorities necessitate the blue camouflage. Of course, this is 20th century PRC vs ROC. Nowadays, I'd be surprised if the ROC can inflict even triple digit casualties on PLA forces.

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To keep this discussion from getting off topic I will keep this as straight as possible. The PLA Marines have at least several amphibious light tanks like the Type 63A back then and the ZTD-05 nowadays. Both of which can at least withstand small to medium arms fire, and the PLA would have certainly conducted serious off shore bombardment before hand to weaken coastal defenses before the actual assault. The defenders may have the more advantageous position, but the PLA Marines would have naval and air support before they even consider an such an attack.
Minimizing losses coming in from the sea is not going to mean much if you are going to maximize your chances of being spotted and attacked by the enemy, which is exactly what wearing extremely contrasting colousr vs the back ground is gonna get you.

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jobjed said:

Why would the PLA fight with NVGs in broad daylight? The blue is for the naked eye to differentiate friendlies and enemy during a daytime assault of Taiwan.

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MwRYum said:

Simply put, the smurf camo only works if the wearer is in the water or floating on top of it, in any other situation it's about as good as paint a bullseye for the enemy instead.

Face it, unless you're suited inside a 2m-plus tall power armour, the choice of camo matters.

With the PLA Marines switching tracks from old-fashioned beach assault landing to high-speed, multi-vector insertions, with improved firepower and survivability, the outdated ocean camo (aka smurf camo) is time to go.

Now, let's see if the rumoured new camo rollout - the so-called "Type 15 camo", a spin-off based on Multicam - actually going to happen next month as speculated.

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jobjed said:

.....

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