indian ocean conflict

jatt said:

If the rumours are true Akulas. I know its about time for the ATV aswell. The IN seems to be really pushing for some real force multiplyers, same with the IAF. Just leaves onw questioning what the IA plans.

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What can the IA get as a force multiplier? I mean, much of their equipment is already countered by the PA. T-90's will have to face Al Khalids, T-80UD, T-84, and the Type 85 just for example. Is there EVEN a force multiplier that the IA can choose that the PA will have a difficult time to encounter?

crazyinsane105 said:

What can the IA get as a force multiplier? I mean, much of their equipment is already countered by the PA. T-90's will have to face Al Khalids, T-80UD, T-84, and the Type 85 just for example. Is there EVEN a force multiplier that the IA can choose that the PA will have a difficult time to encounter?

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The Indian Army will be suffering a tank shortage in about 5 years. All of hte Vijayantas will be retired and all of the T-55s will be retired. That means by 2010, India will only have about 2000 tanks, less than Pakistan. Pakistan will have the Al-Zarrar's which can be compared to the T-80UD, the Al-Khalid, the T-80UD, the T-84, and the Type-85! The T-72s have still not been upgraded, so they will be nice targets for Pakistan's tanks. The T-90 will be a challenge, but once that Bakhtar Shikan round is in production, bye-bye!

crazyinsane105 said:

The Talwar class is pretty damn deadly. That is why the IN is ordering several more.

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for an Asian FFG, it's pretty deadly, yes. but I was talking about its ASW, not its other systems. And they are not ordering more Talwar, but project 17, which is supposedly better.

DPRKUnderground said:

The Indian Army will be suffering a tank shortage in about 5 years. All of hte Vijayantas will be retired and all of the T-55s will be retired. That means by 2010, India will only have about 2000 tanks, less than Pakistan. Pakistan will have the Al-Zarrar's which can be compared to the T-80UD, the Al-Khalid, the T-80UD, the T-84, and the Type-85! The T-72s have still not been upgraded, so they will be nice targets for Pakistan's tanks. The T-90 will be a challenge, but once that Bakhtar Shikan round is in production, bye-bye!

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Correction the T-72 are being upgraded at a slow pace for now.

Is there EVEN a force multiplier that the IA can choose that the PA will have a difficult time to encounter?

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Artillery. There was a tender out there but it got caught in a scandel. Apparently this is what the IA lags in large numbers.

And they are not ordering more Talwar, but project 17, which is supposedly better.

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They might be doing both. IN is in talks for 3 more Krivik II Class. It is a good possibility that they will make the order. The IN is known to by 2 batches or 3.

DPRKUnderground said:

The Indian Army will be suffering a tank shortage in about 5 years. All of hte Vijayantas will be retired and all of the T-55s will be retired. That means by 2010, India will only have about 2000 tanks, less than Pakistan. Pakistan will have the Al-Zarrar's which can be compared to the T-80UD, the Al-Khalid, the T-80UD, the T-84, and the Type-85! The T-72s have still not been upgraded, so they will be nice targets for Pakistan's tanks. The T-90 will be a challenge, but once that Bakhtar Shikan round is in production, bye-bye!

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2000 tanks!!!! thats more than a nation needs. countries should be concentrating on light, mobil warfare rather than kursk style tank battles.
india just needs missles and rpgs to kill tanks.

crazyinsane105 said:

True, but you have to remember that a sub can detect a frigate much more quickly than the frigate can detect the sub. It will be very risky for the IN to operate in such conditions. Just look at the USN: they have the best ASW in the world yet they are still very scared of Chinese subs.

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You are forgeting Indians 10 Kilo's. The best way to prosecute a sub is with another sub.

DPRKUnderground said:

Pakistan has the advantages in Naval Aviation and Submarines. But the Surface Fleet lacks in numbers when compared to the IN. If you ask me Pakistan needs to enhance it's littoral capabilites, I know new patrol boats are coming from Turkey, but their should be a new platform for the Babur!

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Currently, Pakistan does NOT have any advantages in submarines and naval aviation.

It has only 2 Agosta B's vs 10 improved Kilos and 2 HDW subs.
It's fleet air arm is limited to patrol aircraft of P-3, which is very vulnerable, and has no organic airdefence for its ships other than the PAF.

Indian NAval aviation has a single harrier squadron based on the Viraat, Tu-142, Helo AEW,etc

IDonT said:

Currently, Pakistan does NOT have any advantages in submarines and naval aviation.

It has only 2 Agosta B's vs 10 improved Kilos and 2 HDW subs.
It's fleet air arm is limited to patrol aircraft of P-3, which is very vulnerable, and has no organic airdefence for its ships other than the PAF.

Indian NAval aviation has a single harrier squadron based on the Viraat, Tu-142, Helo AEW,etc

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I think India has 4 HDW subs, but donno how many are in operation.

Pakistan is known to have has 2 x Agosta 90B + 1 in construction, 4 x Agosta 70, 4 x Daphne, & 2 x MG110 midget sybs.

Why this thread is becoming another Indo-Pak batte ground ???

Ok, as an Indian here are my points:
1. Giving a new name does not make an old tank completely new !!! :rofl:
Calling T55 Alzarrar and Type 90 as Alkhalid does not make them a new valient tank systems . Type 90 is a dated design which is not even inducted by the Chinese forces !! While in Pakistan it got a new name(Alkhalid) and at once became the most powerful tank !!!!!! :roll:

2. Pakistani sub and naval avaition is no match to that of India . Pakistani navy consists of few survillence aircrafts (Atantic, P3) and choppers . PAF naval squadron has Mirages with no BVR or look down -shoot down . Though I heard that the grifo radar fitted in some Mirages( MirageIII rose) has limited look down shoot down capability.
While Indian navy has a large no of Transport and survillance aircrafts and a vast feet of rotary wings !! India has Harrier jets which operate from its carrier . Harriers are now getting upgraded with BVR and better radar & aveonics . In near future Mig 29(naval) are going to come with Russian carrier Amiral Gorshkov !!!
IAF's deicated naval arm consists of Mirage 200s, Jaguars an SU 30 aircrafts !!!

ArjunMk1 said:

Why this thread is becoming another Indo-Pak batte ground ???

Ok, as an Indian here are my points:
1. Giving a new name does not make an old tank completely new !!! :rofl:
Calling T55 Alzarrar and Type 90 as Alkhalid does not make them a new valient tank systems . Type 90 is a dated design which is not even inducted by the Chinese forces !! While in Pakistan it got a new name(Alkhalid) and at once became the most powerful tank !!!!!! :roll:

2. Pakistani sub and naval avaition is no match to that of India . Pakistani navy consists of few survillence aircrafts (Atantic, P3) and choppers . PAF naval squadron has Mirages with no BVR or look down -shoot down . Though I heard that the grifo radar fitted in some Mirages( MirageIII rose) has limited look down shoot down capability.
While Indian navy has a large no of Transport and survillance aircrafts and a vast feet of rotary wings !! India has Harrier jets which operate from its carrier . Harriers are now getting upgraded with BVR and better radar & aveonics . In near future Mig 29(naval) are going to come with Russian carrier Amiral Gorshkov !!!
IAF's deicated naval arm consists of Mirage 200s, Jaguars an SU 30 aircrafts !!!

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There needs to be some aspect in which this involves China, a pure Indo-Pakistani debate will not interest most readers of this forum.

However, an Indo-Pakistani naval conflict in 2012 may draw in China. Any Sino-Indian naval conflict in the Indian Ocean will definitely draw in Pakistan.

Arjun, I have a question about your statements:

As I learned, the Mirage 2000's that India obtained in small number from Qatar is not dedicated to the Naval arm, but remains under strategic air command center. When did it become dedicated to the Naval arm?

Also, do not forget the 20 or so Pakistani Mirage V's equipped with Exocet missiles. Do you beleive any ship in the Indian navy is immune to the Exocet? There is no Aegis system, short of the newest British Type 45, capable of assuring protection from the Exocet. Even the US navy accepts British Type 45 escorts from time to time to assure better protection in hot spots. This will remain until the US develops their next generation of AEGIS systems.

I expect Some Chinese submarines in the Arabian Sea in 2012. This is of grave concern to the lone Indian carrier in the region. In the end, it will be India's land based airforce which will suppress the Mirage V's and their dreaded Exocets. The Harriers won't do the job.


Finally, What would the start of a Sino-Indian naval conflict look like?

One speculative scenario:

Indian navy interdicts shipping to Pakistan looking for secret weapon caches purchased from North Korea. North Korean vessels regularly sail under false flag -usually China's. India may 'accidentally' interdict and board Chinese vessels they suspect of transporting arms to Pakistan. Chinese protest leads to sending a show of force. Chinese fleet visits Pakistan's harbor. Indian Navy, suspecting it has the advantage, attempts to blockade the Harbor.

The Haggis hits the fan.