Indian Military News

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flyzies

Junior Member
Re: Indian Army & Navy news thread

Type of news that gets the "what...the...hell" reaction. Esp the parts in bold...

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Navy’s sub induction plan suffers blow

A mass of tangled wires, loose plates and scaffolding surround a shabby, ferrous hulk sitting at a dry dock at the public sector Hindustan Shipyard Ltd. (HSL) in Visakhapatnam.

A few workmen amble around the yard disregarding the chaos around. Welcome to the navy's 'dry dock queen', the INS Sindhukirti. For close to five years, this submarine has been sitting in a medium refit-conducted when a submarine completes half its operational life of 15 years-manned by a skeletal naval crew.

She can rejoin the fleet only after another five years by which time this steel shark would have spent a third of her useful life of 30 years, in a refit. "We have written off this submarine," shrugs a naval official.

Even as the navy awaits a formal report on the accident onboard the Akula-2 nuclear powered attack submarine Nerpa (to be leased to India as the INS Chakra next year), it worries about the sorry state of its conventional arm.

On paper, the Indian Navy, the world's fifth largest, boasts a fleet strength of 16 submarines. In reality, only six submarines are operational-available for combat or classified surveillance missions. At least four other submarines like the Sindhukirti are stuck in prolonged and messy refits.

The navy's worst kept secret was highlighted by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) in its 2006-07 report, tabled recently in the Parliament.

"In what could seriously impact on the operational preparedness of the Indian navy, more than 50 per cent of its submarines have completed 75 per cent of their operational life of 30 years and some (the INS Vela and INS Vagli) have already outlived their maximum service life," says the report.

This hole in the navy's capabilities comes at a time when it is on the cusp of acquiring critical leap in underwater strategic capability-three nuclear- powered ballistic missile submarines representing India's second strike capability or the ability to deter an adversary with nuclear retaliation in case of a first strike.

The first submarine is to be launched on January 26 next year, just two months from now and two others, currently building at Hazira, Gujarat, are to follow in the next five years.

The Chakra - the quietest, deadliest Russian attack submarine-- was meant to not only to boost the navy's underwater attack capability but rapidly train crews to man the three ATVs (All-Terrain Vehicle).

Each nuclear submarine requires over 100 personnel and the arm needs over 500 specially trained personnel to man the submarines over the next five years. But with the submarine arm, which has a strength of 2,850 officers and men, already facing a 30 per cent shortage in personnel, it is unclear how this deficit will be met quickly.

Now, as the navy is set to investigate into possible glitches in systems common to both the ATV and the Akula, it has to wrestle with a dip in the operational preparedness of its conventional submarine arm.

Due to an ageing fleet and prolonged refit schedules, the average operational availability of the submarines is as low as 48 per cent (The ideal availability is 66 per cent). This is a fleet tasked with defending a 7,600 km coastline and patrolling a sphere of influence which stretches from the Gulf of Aden to the Malacca Straits.

The CAG report notes: "If the construction plan for new submarines is not expedited, 63 per cent of the existing fleet would complete their prescribed life by 2012, when the first new submarines (six Scorpene class submarines being built at Mazagon Docks Ltd. in Mumbai, will be inducted in intervals of 18 months from 2012 onwards) will be inducted as per the present schedule."

That's not all. Back of the envelope calculations show that between 2016 and 2018-less than a decade from now-seven, or 60 per cent of the remaining fleet, will have to be phased out. How did things come to such a state?

To only be able to maintain its existing fleet strength of 16 submarines, the navy needs to add one submarine every two years. It is an accepted equation that to keep one submarine at sea, a navy needs to have one in refit. The navy has failed on both counts. It has not added a single new submarine for the last eight years. By the time the first of the six Scorpene class submarines start rolling off the production line at MDL Mumbai, the damage to a conventional submarine arm would already have been done.

Timely refits are essential for ensuring operational availability and readiness of a submarine but according to the CAG, most of the refits could not be completed within the prescribed time period.

It is a sad story of political dithering, bureaucratic bungling and ineptitude of public sector shipyards. It is a story that nearly cost the country its indigenous submarine-building capability in the wake of the HDW bribery scandal in the mid-1980s when the German submarine maker was black-listed.

The navy's 30-year plan to build 24 conventional submarines indigenously was approved nearly a decade back but never implemented. The government did not explore the option to build more submarines at MDL and wasted 12 years, nearly allowing a carefully nurtured precision-engineering capability, possessed by only a handful of nations, to wither away.

This impressive force of 24 submarines is unlikely be realised even a decade from now. Officially, the Sindhukirti, for whose refit the navy has already paid Rs 650 crore, is to join the navy in 2010. But with barely 30 per cent of her medium refit-where the submarine is stripped of all equipment, her hull inspected for wear and tear and machinery replaced-completed since 2004, officials say there is no way she can join before 2015.

Six of India's fleet of ten Soviet-built Kilo class submarines have been refitted at Russian shipyard Zvezdochka with the last such refitted submarine, the Sindhuvijay, set to sail to India next month. Though the programme has been severely indicted by the CAG which called it, "Piecemeal modernisation and upgradation of submarines at an aggregate cost of Rs 1,560 crore undertaken by the navy without taking approval of the competent financial authority," it seems to be outstanding when compared to domestic refits.

It took the Russian shipyard between 24 and 28 months to refit each Kilo class submarine while it takes an Indian shipyard nearly a decade to complete the same refit. A Russian shipyard deploys over 200 workers in three shifts to complete the refit in two years while HSL-a yard for building commercial ships and with little experience in refitting submarines-deploys just 50 workers.

It took the naval dockyard Vizag and HSL nearly a decade each to refit the INS Vela and the INS Vagli, the last surviving pair of Soviet-supplied Foxtrot class submarines acquired in the mid-1970s, which means the two submarines have already spent a third of their lives in medium refits.

Despite objections from a section of the navy which questioned the yard's competence, the Sindhukirti was transferred to the HSL in 2004. The reason given was to develop refit capability within the country to service future submarines.

"Developing indigenous refit capability is laudable, but should this be done at the cost of operational readiness?" says a senior naval official. Clearly, operational readiness is not an issue that concerns a public sector shipyard insulated from accountability. It is not clear why the navy is soft on HSL.

Is it the fact that the yard is a cosy retirement posting for naval officials? Or is it because the Naval Dockyard Visakhapatnam has proved to be equally incompetent in speedily repairing submarines? It undertook medium refits of three Kilo class submarines, all of which took at least three years to complete.

In a bid to arrest declining numbers, the navy this year floated a request for information asking foreign submarine builders to bid for building six more conventional submarines within the country. It will take at least five years for steel to be cut on the first such submarine and then again, it is unclear exactly where these submarines will be built.

The only submarine yard at MDL is full-up building six Scorpene submarines. In the interim, the navy is flogging its two ageing Foxtrots, the Vela and Vagli which are already five years past their operational usefulness, eagerly awaiting the arrival of its nuclear boats.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: Indian Army & Navy news thread

Can you say "bend over"?

Bruce Loudon, South Asia correspondent | November 22, 2008

A $3.1 billion price hike for an ageing Russian aircraft carrier is severely straining ties with India.

Indian anger over the issue was fuelled yesterday when it was disclosed that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev had cut back next month's New Delhi visit to a single day.

In 2004, amid much fanfare about what an aircraft carrier would mean for India's world standing, New Delhi agreed to buy the Admiral Gorshkov -- to be renamed the INS Vikramaditya -- and had planned for the warship to be the centrepiece of Independence Day celebrations in August this year.

The deal was seen as providing India with a head start over its main Asian rival, China, which is believed to be building up to three carriers.

The crisis in relations surrounds not only the failure to deliver the carrier on time, but also the $US2 billion ($3.1 billion) price hike demanded by Moscow.

Independence Day came and went without the Vikramaditya, and the berth for the 45,000-tonne, Kiev-class warship could be empty until 2012.

Negotiations began this week, and Russian officials appeared to be unapologetic about the delay and the new $US3.5 billion price.

The state news agency RIA Novosti yesterday quoted a Defence Ministry official in Moscow as delivering an ultimatum: if the Indians refused to pay, the carrier would be transferred to the depleted Russian fleet.

The agency blamed increases in the cost of labour and components as well as lack of experience in dealing with large surface ships at the Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk.

"What will it mean for Russia if the ship doesn't end up in India?" asked an editorial on the agency website.

"On the one hand, a failure to meet commitments to a foreign partner would hit Russia's reputation. On the other hand, a possible decision to provide funding to complete the ship and return it to the Russian navy would favour both the country's defence industry and the navy, which needs an aircraft carrier."

The carrier has a 273m flight deck to carry up to 20 MiG-29 fighters and up to eight Kamov Ka-28/Ka-31 helicopters. If sold to India, it would carry HAL Tejas trainer aircraft, Dhruv light helicopters, Kinzhal air defence missiles and Kashtan air defence gun or missile systems.

India's plans to build its own aircraft carrier, scheduled to start last year with the laying down of its keel in the port of Cochin, southwest India, have been delayed until 2015.

The breakdown in relations comes after decades of close ties. The old Soviet Union and Russia have been India's major arms supplier.

The Gorshkov deal had always sparked doubts in India. The vessel is 26 years old and spent years in mothballs following a boiler-room explosion in 1994.

The most generous view in India is that the work needed to refurbish it was grossly under-estimated by Russian naval architects. Estimates that the carrier needed 700km of new cabling blew out to 2400km.

Mr Medvedev will have to do a lot of talking during his one day in New Delhi, December 5, to sign an agreement to build more reactors at the Kudankulam plant in Tamil Nadu.

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Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: Indian Army & Navy news thread

Hey India, the US did offer the USS Kitty Hawk for free if you purchased Super Hornets... and you won't have to go through the painful process of reactivating it... I guess it is time to take up the American's offer.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Re: Indian Army & Navy news thread

Wow how do the Russians think they can "explain that away"? "Oops we sort found out this is going to cost 3 BILLION DOLLARS more than we thought it would."

Indian should end all arms dealings with Russia, at least in naval matters. The Russians have screwed them over here and also revoked their previous agreement to lease the IN an Akula II.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: Indian Army & Navy news thread

I agree with Finn^^

$3.1 BILLION USD extra?? Dang that's like buying a used car for the price of a new one..Let's see I just checked and the orginal cost was $800 million USD..Now the Russians tack on $3.1 Billion USD and don't blink an eye. India you just got "jacked"(robbed)

Hey India, the US did offer the USS Kitty Hawk for free if you purchased Super Hornets... and you won't have to go through the painful process of reactivating it... I guess it is time to take up the American's offer.

No no no..That did not happen. What happened was the Kitty Hawk was in port in India somewhere and the Captian was interviewed by the Indian news media and was asked what will happen to the ship when it is decomissioned. He answered and I paraphrase.."It would be nice to see it in the hands of one of our(US) allies" The Indian press and fanboys took that to mean the ship would be given to India. From that all sorts of internet rumors started. If I find the video I will post it.
 
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PrOeLiTeZ

Junior Member
Registered Member
Re: Indian Army & Navy news thread

i highly doubt the kitty hawk would be given away for free. its a multi-billion dollar carrier that the american, it aint some useless platform to be given away for free, just for the act of good faith.

another $3 billion dollars, thats like another new carrier, or 6 new naval destroyers. with that kind of money you can do better things then repair and old dusty platform. how can Russian naval architects be so wrong? i mean yeah couple thousand dollars extra maybe due to financial crisis and rising cost of materials but $3 billion dollars. thats a joke.

first russia fails to deliver the IL-76/78 to China, asking for more money, now they fail to deliver the carrier to India, unless more money is given. Russia jeez not printing the best picture on yourself as becoming a superpower, or reliable partner.
 

RedMercury

Junior Member
Re: Indian Army & Navy news thread

In both instances the Russian negotiators knew they held all the cards, and played it like that. Can you blame them for being cunning?
 

PrOeLiTeZ

Junior Member
Registered Member
Re: Indian Army & Navy news thread

In both instances the Russian negotiators knew they held all the cards, and played it like that. Can you blame them for being cunning?
russia was short on cash when the deal went through, so they didnt have much leverage then. cunning is not really the word i would use. it isnt the best indication of a rising military superpower, to be so ill informed, consistent errors, delays, budget cuts, cash shortage, inexperience plants. all this doesnt sound like an emerging superpower. as for the carrier, india is underway in its development, so by the time the russians finish the carrier, india wouldve launch their own by then. so russia doesnt hold the cards at all.
 

Adux

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Re: Indian Army & Navy news thread

Just to clarify,

That 3.1 billion dollars includes training, 16 mig-29k (option for 36 more), support structures, helicopters and spares.
 

Adux

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Re: Indian Army & Navy news thread

And Indians haven't agreed to anything, they have setup and given permission for price re-negotiation.

What was $1.5 billion including all the jets etc is now $3.1 billion.
 
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