Indian Military News
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plawolf
Lieutenant General
But is it really over?
I always loved the Rafale, and hope this deal does through as it is a crime that such a wonderful aircraft has not been exported yet.
If the Indian deal does go through, Rafale will also be the top contender for a number of other upcoming fighter deals, so it's success could easily snowball after this.
French firm Dassault has emerged as the lowest bidder for a $10bn (£6.3bn) contract to supply India jet fighters.
Dassault Aviation, as preferred bidder, will now enter final talks before signing a deal that will supply India's air force with 126 Rafale aircraft.
Correspondents say this is one of the world's biggest defence deals and is a major setback for rival bidder, the Eurofighter Typhoon.
Eurofighter lost out in December on an $8bn deal to supply jets to Japan.
Shares in Dassault Aviation rocketed more than 20% as the latest news broke.
'Purely cost'
The Typhoon is built by the German and Spanish branches of European aerospace giant EADS, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica.
Officials at the British High Commission in Delhi said they were disappointed with the decision and would now study the details.
"It was expressly said this was about the cost of the contract, not a reflection on the health of bilateral relations between India and the countries," the commission said.
A spokesman for the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium told the BBC they were disappointed, but stressed that the decision was not final and negotiations were still going on.
"However, we respect the decision of the Indian MoD. With the Eurofighter Typhoon, we offered the Indian Air Force the most modern combat aircraft available," he said.
"Based on the Indian government feedback, we will now carefully analyse and evaluate this situation together with our European partner companies and their respective governments."
BBC defence and diplomatic correspondent Jonathan Marcus says the Indian air force is going through an unprecedented period of modernisation; a response in part to China's developing air power.
Analysts say the Typhoon was widely tipped to be the successful bid Four other bidders had dropped out in the lengthy Indian selection process.
He says various reasons were in play in the Indian decision, including diversifying from Russian hardware and contractual problems with other bidders.
French Minister of State for Foreign Trade Pierre Lellouche welcomed the deal, the first foreign order for the Rafale multi-role jet.
He said: "This is good news and France needs good news right now... It is good news for our aerospace industry and for our defence industry."
Mr Lellouche also complained that "political pressure applied by our competitors does not make things very easy".
James Hardy, Asia Pacific specialist at IHS Jane's Defence Weekly, said this was a "big loss for Eurofighter".
"The Typhoon was widely tipped to be the favourite and had major political support from the big beasts of the Eurofighter nations. Both Germany and the UK invested a lot of time in pushing the Typhoon, so this will hurt."
Indian Defence Minister AK Antony had earlier cautioned that this remained a "long process" and that no deal would be signed before the end of March.
One Indian defence ministry source confirmed to Reuters that the Rafale had been "much cheaper unit-wise", adding: "Moreover, the Indian air force, which is well-equipped with French fighters, is favouring the French."
India is the biggest arms importer among emerging nations.
I always loved the Rafale, and hope this deal does through as it is a crime that such a wonderful aircraft has not been exported yet.
If the Indian deal does go through, Rafale will also be the top contender for a number of other upcoming fighter deals, so it's success could easily snowball after this.
French firm Dassault has emerged as the lowest bidder for a $10bn (£6.3bn) contract to supply India jet fighters.
Dassault Aviation, as preferred bidder, will now enter final talks before signing a deal that will supply India's air force with 126 Rafale aircraft.
Correspondents say this is one of the world's biggest defence deals and is a major setback for rival bidder, the Eurofighter Typhoon.
Eurofighter lost out in December on an $8bn deal to supply jets to Japan.
Shares in Dassault Aviation rocketed more than 20% as the latest news broke.
'Purely cost'
The Typhoon is built by the German and Spanish branches of European aerospace giant EADS, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica.
Officials at the British High Commission in Delhi said they were disappointed with the decision and would now study the details.
"It was expressly said this was about the cost of the contract, not a reflection on the health of bilateral relations between India and the countries," the commission said.
A spokesman for the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium told the BBC they were disappointed, but stressed that the decision was not final and negotiations were still going on.
"However, we respect the decision of the Indian MoD. With the Eurofighter Typhoon, we offered the Indian Air Force the most modern combat aircraft available," he said.
"Based on the Indian government feedback, we will now carefully analyse and evaluate this situation together with our European partner companies and their respective governments."
BBC defence and diplomatic correspondent Jonathan Marcus says the Indian air force is going through an unprecedented period of modernisation; a response in part to China's developing air power.
Analysts say the Typhoon was widely tipped to be the successful bid Four other bidders had dropped out in the lengthy Indian selection process.
He says various reasons were in play in the Indian decision, including diversifying from Russian hardware and contractual problems with other bidders.
French Minister of State for Foreign Trade Pierre Lellouche welcomed the deal, the first foreign order for the Rafale multi-role jet.
He said: "This is good news and France needs good news right now... It is good news for our aerospace industry and for our defence industry."
Mr Lellouche also complained that "political pressure applied by our competitors does not make things very easy".
James Hardy, Asia Pacific specialist at IHS Jane's Defence Weekly, said this was a "big loss for Eurofighter".
"The Typhoon was widely tipped to be the favourite and had major political support from the big beasts of the Eurofighter nations. Both Germany and the UK invested a lot of time in pushing the Typhoon, so this will hurt."
Indian Defence Minister AK Antony had earlier cautioned that this remained a "long process" and that no deal would be signed before the end of March.
One Indian defence ministry source confirmed to Reuters that the Rafale had been "much cheaper unit-wise", adding: "Moreover, the Indian air force, which is well-equipped with French fighters, is favouring the French."
India is the biggest arms importer among emerging nations.
The Rafale has finally proven its multi-role capability in air to ground operations. ;p
This sale will make the Rafale more attractive to other potential buyers. As for why India choose the aircraft, I'd like to cite this article on Brazil's opinion of their F-X2 procurement:
"France is always the better partner. Concerning Russia, everyone knows the difficulties and we don’t know what is going to happen in ten years so that we will be able to guarantee our spare parts. The USA, traditionally, does not transfer technology…. We want to seek the lowest price with the most technology transfer.”
<snip>
"Subsequent events would bear out these advantages, but Folha de Sao Paolo reports that it was the most expensive of the 3 finalists, with a price tag of about $8.2 billion US dollars (13.3 billion Reals), plus $4 billion in maintenance contracts over the next 30 years. Dassault reportedly offered the best technology transfer package, and Defence Minister Jobim claims a subsequent $2 billion price reduction, but details remain unclear. The plane remains a strong contender, but the inability to sign a contract under President Lula’s administration removes the aircraft’s biggest advantage in the Brazilian competition."
So it looks like the French, after losing bids in 7-8 other countries, is now flexible on the pricing. I wouldn't be surprised if they reduced the asking price by at least a couple billion for India.
This sale will make the Rafale more attractive to other potential buyers. As for why India choose the aircraft, I'd like to cite this article on Brazil's opinion of their F-X2 procurement:
"France is always the better partner. Concerning Russia, everyone knows the difficulties and we don’t know what is going to happen in ten years so that we will be able to guarantee our spare parts. The USA, traditionally, does not transfer technology…. We want to seek the lowest price with the most technology transfer.”
<snip>
"Subsequent events would bear out these advantages, but Folha de Sao Paolo reports that it was the most expensive of the 3 finalists, with a price tag of about $8.2 billion US dollars (13.3 billion Reals), plus $4 billion in maintenance contracts over the next 30 years. Dassault reportedly offered the best technology transfer package, and Defence Minister Jobim claims a subsequent $2 billion price reduction, but details remain unclear. The plane remains a strong contender, but the inability to sign a contract under President Lula’s administration removes the aircraft’s biggest advantage in the Brazilian competition."
So it looks like the French, after losing bids in 7-8 other countries, is now flexible on the pricing. I wouldn't be surprised if they reduced the asking price by at least a couple billion for India.
Probably the costs of the engines and perhaps some other items aren't included in the $1.78b. And perhaps the $4.1b included a possible increase in the order.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
it is pretty clear India will be field 2 carriers in the not too distant future with a 3rd in the pipeline
by 2020 India could possible have all 3 carriers, certainly 2, which means at anyone time India can field 2 naval sqaudrons
if India fears one thing that is Pakistans sub-surface fleet, it was Pakistan navy that used submarines for the first after WWII to sink a surface ship, PNS Hangor sunk INS Khukri and damaged INS Kirpan of 14th Squadron killing all 192 sailors, and PNS Ghazi kept the Indian aircraft carrier INS Vikrant locked in Bay of Bengal for the duration of the war in 1971
what implication has this got for Pakistan? well in wartime no doubt India will go for a blockade, or go for our harbours/naval shipyards, we dont have many of them, with 2 aircraft carriers sitting in the Arabian Sea they could be a potential risk
in such a scenario I think Pakistan Navy should dispatch submarines to hunt for Indian frigates or destroyer, which will be leading any opening attack, but this has to be very early on in the war, i mean in the opending few hours of any conflict
if Pakistan navy can cripple or even damage a Indian surface ship this will put Indian navy on the back foot, similar to Royal Navy in Falklands, sink a big ticket item and force the enemy to think twice before commiting again
follow this up with a wave on wave of JF17 equipped with anti-ship missiles, if one even comes close to a carrier Indian navy will not venture close to Pakistans shores, this has to be well co-ordinated using possible divertion attack first
if we can come to some agreement with Oman and base some fighters from there, we could operate deep into the Arabia sea where Indian navy will not expect us, but with air re-fueling we can do that now anyway
for this we need U214 or a advanced Chinese Yuan, we need a next generation submarine and i hope we hear some good news from Pakistan navy soon, there has already been alot of talk with Chinese on a new submarine with Pakistan specific requirments
for PN we need the 3 Agostas 90Bs + 3 mini-subs + 6 new submarines = 12 in total, submarines are the silent hunters and used properly can alter the tatics of a entire battle group
by 2020 India could possible have all 3 carriers, certainly 2, which means at anyone time India can field 2 naval sqaudrons
if India fears one thing that is Pakistans sub-surface fleet, it was Pakistan navy that used submarines for the first after WWII to sink a surface ship, PNS Hangor sunk INS Khukri and damaged INS Kirpan of 14th Squadron killing all 192 sailors, and PNS Ghazi kept the Indian aircraft carrier INS Vikrant locked in Bay of Bengal for the duration of the war in 1971
what implication has this got for Pakistan? well in wartime no doubt India will go for a blockade, or go for our harbours/naval shipyards, we dont have many of them, with 2 aircraft carriers sitting in the Arabian Sea they could be a potential risk
in such a scenario I think Pakistan Navy should dispatch submarines to hunt for Indian frigates or destroyer, which will be leading any opening attack, but this has to be very early on in the war, i mean in the opending few hours of any conflict
if Pakistan navy can cripple or even damage a Indian surface ship this will put Indian navy on the back foot, similar to Royal Navy in Falklands, sink a big ticket item and force the enemy to think twice before commiting again
follow this up with a wave on wave of JF17 equipped with anti-ship missiles, if one even comes close to a carrier Indian navy will not venture close to Pakistans shores, this has to be well co-ordinated using possible divertion attack first
if we can come to some agreement with Oman and base some fighters from there, we could operate deep into the Arabia sea where Indian navy will not expect us, but with air re-fueling we can do that now anyway
for this we need U214 or a advanced Chinese Yuan, we need a next generation submarine and i hope we hear some good news from Pakistan navy soon, there has already been alot of talk with Chinese on a new submarine with Pakistan specific requirments
for PN we need the 3 Agostas 90Bs + 3 mini-subs + 6 new submarines = 12 in total, submarines are the silent hunters and used properly can alter the tatics of a entire battle group
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CottageLV
Banned Idiot
Indian carriers are too small, too old, and the staff are very inexperienced in real combat. Even if all three carriers are combined and sent together to waters near Pakistan, the sum of aircraft would still just barely equal that of a Nimitz Carrier. Even for the mighty USN, just one carrier is very vulnerable and insufficient in fighting a small country. On the other end, what do you think would happen to the Indian navy? Pakistan could easily launch 50-80 missiles at those ships within a minute. I don't think the Indian ships would be able to protect itself.
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