Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Jeff Head · Jul 26, 2014

by78 said:
Regarding the Akula, it's a lease to familiarize Indian Navy with operating nuclear submarines. It's partially manned by Russian instructors. The term of the lease, from what I understand, is that there are constraints on how it may be used.

No, it is not just a training vessel. Not in the least.

They trained a crew on it when it was finished and commissioned in Russia. Then that Indian crew sailed it to India where it was commissioned.

India would not spend the kind of money on it that they did for just training purposes...they could have retained the old Charlie class Chakra for that. But they did not need to, because they had already operated that vessel for years.

by78 said:
It cannot be considered a fully Indian naval asset.

Sorry...but it most certainly is.

by78 said:
India has not purchased them but only reserves the option to do so once the lease expires.

Russia is constrained by nuclear proliferation treaty obligations NOT to sell it. That is why it was leased. India will most surely exercise the option to lease it for a second ten years.

by78 said:
The carrier, as with any military asset, must be measured against the capabilities of potential opponents. A Nimitz might be formidable against Iran or Syria, but when going against a technologically advanced foe, it becomes more of a liability, having neither the number of planes necessary to secure air superiority nor the defenses necessary to deflect harm.

Sorry, but your knowledge on how a US super carrier would be used in such situations is limited. A US carrier is most certainly a very significant threat to any nation, advanced or not. The tactics change based on threat environments...but they are not in the least stymied. The Chinese realize this. That is why they are building their own. As are the Indians.

by78 said:
Yes Jeff, I agree India's geographic proximity to the vital sea lanes counts as a large advantage. That said, India's ability to patrol and monitor her near seas remains limited, not the least because she has fallen far behind her own acquisition goals and therefore lacked the necessary assets.

Sorry, we disagree fundamentally on the Indian capabilities. They have been doing this in that part of the world, with the assets they have, for a long time. They know what they are about and it would be a serious mistake to underestimate them.

by78 said:
Jeff, I have no doubt that India will add new pieces to her navy in the coming years, but you should take India's projected acquisitions with a huge grain of salt.

I have been to India and worked with their engineering companies and infrastructure. I do not underestimate them and I can promise you, the Chinese military planners will not do so either.

Despite whatever slippages they have experienced in some of their programs, they still were able to have produced an operational new carrier, with an operational carrier air wing of very capable modern strike fighters before the Chinese have done the same.

There is no attack on China's capabilities meant in that statement. It's just a fact. The Chinese will get there on their own timetable, and when they do, it will be formidable.

The Indians also now have decent vessels to escort their carrier and I can tell you, the principle reason they have the Chakra is to add to that capability. They will almost certainly acquire a second one to go with their second carrier for the same reason.

Ultimately, in the 2020s we will see India produce its own SSNs.

Jeff Head · Jul 26, 2014

I penned the following article and am having it published in several places. I am also submitting it to USNI.

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Notice the following picture at that link:

That is of the Chakra under construction in the Russian yards. The changed and paid for the alteration to eight 533mm torpedo tubes to match their own weaponry, from the Russian four 533mm and four 650mm tubes.

This makes it very clear, and painfully evident that the Indian intention is to use this vessel as a full blown warship for escort and patrol duties.

Tako · Jul 27, 2014

by78 said:
The construction of the hull was clearly NOT the reason why P15A was repeatedly delayed, so the adoption of this 'goliath crane' makes little difference. It was India's lack of ability to integrate the various imported subsystems that delayed the project for so long.

The intended sensors and weapon systems were altered many times resulting in delays. The delay had nothing to do with integration of systems.

When the vessel was intially ordered way back in 2000 it was intended to be similar to P-15 destroyers without any change in armaments and sensors. But as the construction progressed new weapons and sensors were added.

Example,

* BrahMos was selected as primary SSM somewhere in mid 2000s

* x48 VLS Shtil was changed to x32 VLS Barak-8

* AK-100E was first changed to 127mm Otobreda gun and now to 76mm Otobreda along with the FCS.

*MR-760 Fregat "Top Plate" (E) was changed to EL/M 2248 MF-STAR [Which was earlier intended to do the role of Volume Search Radar]

These are just few changes that I have mentioned. Also to add that their were several structural changes made too.
Now that the sensors suite for P-15B has been already decided so the build time will reduce by a great margin.

Now, to the INS Chakra, you are wrong to assume that it will be only used as training vessel. This year the Chakra took part in a massive Eastern fleet exercise called TROPEX. You see, even the lone Indian Naval Satellite participated in the exercise.
So you still think that a mere training vessel will take part in a such an exercise ?

FORBIN · Jul 27, 2014

Two questions please,

Old Godavari Frigates will be replaced by Kamorta or Project 17A ?

And now Vikramaditya in service with Western Naval Command, Viraat assigned to Eastern Naval Command ?

Gessler · Jul 27, 2014

FORBIN said:
Two questions please,

Old Godavari Frigates will be replaced by Kamorta or Project 17A ?

P-17A most likely. Although it has not been mentioned anywhere that they are the intended replacements.

Kamorta will not replace any vessel. It is an ASW corvette.

And now Vikramaditya in service with Western Naval Command, Viraat assigned to Eastern Naval Command ?

Don't know about this...what I do know is that the IAC-1/Vikrant is to be inducted by ENC.

Zool · Jul 27, 2014

India is making strides in modernizing it's forces to be sure. But it faces real structural challenges and difficult decisions these next couple of years, which will impact the direction of Indian Forces for decades.

There is a battle between the Import Lobby & Domestic Lobby within India as to where funds should be spent. You see it in all branches. Where those funds go will largely dictate how significantly India is able to develop it's domestic capabilities.

For the IAF, capital allotted to a Rafale purchase and FGFA program for example, will limit progress and numbers for the domestic LCA. Mk1 production would be severely undercut and Mk2 would be delayed with production volumes in question. AMCA would continue to be a research project with questionable funding. Yes, the IAF would benefit from more advanced technologies and capabilities available via import... But they will not benefit internal programs through so called "Technology Transfer" agreements. Nor in the case of Rafale would they make much difference in the calculus versus PLAAF.

You see delays with IN ship building for a few reasons, but these are ultimately teething issues and here they are making stronger efforts to create Domestic programs where possible. Sub-systems are imported in a lot of cases but there are indigenous projects for each as well.

India's Achilles Heel in all of this is poor Infrastructure. Seen over and over again in it's Economic Centers, Urban Centers and MIC. Some may say it is a symptom of (Pick your Previous/Current Government) but it is the number one problem in India needing to be dealt with. Manufacture in quality and number of Aircraft, Ships, Tanks etc all suffer as a result.

Finite capital and infrastructure what it is, I tend toward a Domestic approach for India. Make due with what is available locally and invest those funds that would otherwise be sent overseas, into R&D and Manufacturing Centers. Take an incremental approach similar to China. It will be painful in the short-mid term especially when compared with China as new Chinese platforms come online. But for a nation the size of India and with that much potential, it's probably the best course for the long term IMHO.

Now who wants to bet India goes ahead with the Rafale & FGFA anyway?

Tako · Jul 27, 2014

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The above picture is of the P240 launch complex, i.e silo developed for K-15 SLBM. It was developed as a seperate project and was development was finished in 2001. In 2004 it was handed over to its user and fitted inside a pontoon.

The material used for launcher structure is high-strength-lowalloy (HSLA) steel. Sets of guide rails are bolted to the container to hold the launcher.
Advanced fabrication technology has been used to ensure the desired perpendicularity, parallesim and concentricity. A 2.3 m static seal, which restricts water ingress to the bottom of the container, was designed and experimentally validated for extreme hydrostatic pressure.
Platform launcher has been designed for launching medium range surface to surface missiles. It comprises a launcher structure, a set of shock isolation systems, a set of launcher locking mechanism, a set of special seals and a connector alignment mechanisms for connector blind mating. The launcher structure is having precision dimensional features for perfect interfacing with the missile and other subsystems. The structure is made of special high strength stainless steel for a maintenance free service life. This material does not need any corrosion protection against any aggressive marine environment.

The shock isolation systems protect the launcher against shock load. The shock isolation systems comprise disc spring stacks in longitudinal direction and elastic beams in lateral direction. This particular non conventional combination takes care of compactness and mode decoupling. The locking mechanism locks the shock isolation suspension system and provide rigid support during launch operation. It is a fail-safe all mechanical device. The 2.4 m diameter diaphragm seal prevents water entrance and flexes when the launcher vibrates on the shock isolation mounts. The seal has been developed based on steel reinforced radial tire technology. The connector alignment mechanism has all six degrees of freedom and, therefore, capable to take care of any misalignment within the envisaged limit during blind mating of connector.

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Gessler · Jul 27, 2014

Zool said:
India is making strides in modernizing it's forces to be sure. But it faces real structural challenges and difficult decisions these next couple of years, which will impact the direction of Indian Forces for decades.

There is a battle between the Import Lobby & Domestic Lobby within India as to where funds should be spent. You see it in all branches. Where those funds go will largely dictate how significantly India is able to develop it's domestic capabilities.

For the IAF, capital allotted to a Rafale purchase and FGFA program for example, will limit progress and numbers for the domestic LCA. Mk1 production would be severely undercut and Mk2 would be delayed with production volumes in question. AMCA would continue to be a research project with questionable funding. Yes, the IAF would benefit from more advanced technologies and capabilities available via import... But they will not benefit internal programs through so called "Technology Transfer" agreements. Nor in the case of Rafale would they make much difference in the calculus versus PLAAF.

You see delays with IN ship building for a few reasons, but these are ultimately teething issues and here they are making stronger efforts to create Domestic programs where possible. Sub-systems are imported in a lot of cases but there are indigenous projects for each as well.

India's Achilles Heel in all of this is poor Infrastructure. Seen over and over again in it's Economic Centers, Urban Centers and MIC. Some may say it is a symptom of (Pick your Previous/Current Government) but it is the number one problem in India needing to be dealt with. Manufacture in quality and number of Aircraft, Ships, Tanks etc all suffer as a result.

Finite capital and infrastructure what it is, I tend toward a Domestic approach for India. Make due with what is available locally and invest those funds that would otherwise be sent overseas, into R&D and Manufacturing Centers. Take an incremental approach similar to China. It will be painful in the short-mid term especially when compared with China as new Chinese platforms come online. But for a nation the size of India and with that much potential, it's probably the best course for the long term IMHO.

Now who wants to bet India goes ahead with the Rafale & FGFA anyway?

I agree with most of the points raised by you in this post.

aksha · Jul 29, 2014

Strategic airlift and nostalgia headed for Delhi, in one package

aksha · Jul 29, 2014

Strategic airlift and nostalgia headed for Delhi, in one package

When this C-17 Globemaster-III touches down in New Delhi on July 28, there will be a surprise package in the gigantic aircraft's belly. The state-of-the-art strategic airlift aircraft will regurgitate a vintage plane onto the tarmac at Palam.

The four-engine C-17, which will be sixth such aircraft to be delivered of the 10 ordered for $4.1 billion from the US, will be carrying a restored T-6G Harvard plane that was used by IAF to train its rookie pilots in the 1950s and 1960s.

The single-engine Harvard is the second vintage plane to be restored under the IAF project to have a Vintage Flight Squadron (VFS), a hugely popular concept in air forces around the globe despite the supersonic era in military aviation, which is now headed for hypersonic, unmanned air combat operations. "Our first vintage plane that was restored in the UK was a Tiger Moth, a biplane of the 1940s which even saw some action during World War-II. The Tiger Moth created waves during the flypast on the 80th anniversary of IAF in 2012," said an officer.

"It's all about nostalgia and chronicling the rich IAF heritage since it came into existence on October 8, 1932, with six Royal Air Force-trained Indian officers and four Westland Wapiti II-A biplanes. Around 10 vintage planes like Spitfire, Vampire, HT2-1, Wapiti, Lysander, Tempest and Hurricane from the IAF museum will be progressively resurrected for the VFS,'' he added.

Though IAF did some initial restoration work, despite it being difficult to find spare-parts for the retired warhorses, the Tiger Moth and Harvard were later sent to M/s Reflight Airworks in the UK for making them fully capable of flying once again.

The Harvard, with its wings detached, has already been loaded onto the C-17 during its stopover in the UK. "The C-17 will reach New Delhi on Monday via Abu Dhabi. Like the first five C-17s, this one will also join the 81 ``SkyLords'' Squadron based at the Hindon airbase," said another officer.

India's strategic airlift capabilities have got a big boost with the C-17s, which have undertaken missions to Port Blair, Leh and Thoise as well as "special" ones to energy-rich Tajikistan and Rwanda in central Africa over the last couple of years. Designed to swiftly airlift a 70-tonne cargo across 4,200-km, the rugged C-17 can even land at makeshift airstrips in forward areas.
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Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Jeff Head

General

Jeff Head

General

Tako

New Member

FORBIN

Lieutenant General

Gessler

New Member

Zool

Junior Member

Tako

New Member

Gessler

New Member

aksha

Captain

aksha

Captain