Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

_killuminati_

Major
Registered Member
Yeah, that part was fascinating to watch.
As flawed as HAL is, it at least learned the hard way. Now, snowflakes without any experience would bring salvation. Sure Fam.
I'm not sure if HAL actually learned anything as they repeated the same mistake thrice - once with the HT-2, then Marut, and finally Tejas (add in HPT-32) - all underpowered, with engine issues.

In that aspect, new manufacturers without experience might be better off as atleast they don't have a notorious reputation of failed programs. HAL's issue seems systemic, deeply embedded. It appears they have a doctrine set in stone which they really do not want to overhaul despite multiple failures.

And yet another program running atm - the HJT-36 - which has largely been a failure as well.

HAL is not a serious company.
 

Lethe

Captain
I'm not sure if HAL actually learned anything as they repeated the same mistake thrice - once with the HT-2, then Marut, and finally Tejas (add in HPT-32) - all underpowered, with engine issues.

In that aspect, new manufacturers without experience might be better off as atleast they don't have a notorious reputation of failed programs. HAL's issue seems systemic, deeply embedded. It appears they have a doctrine set in stone which they really do not want to overhaul despite multiple failures.

And yet another program running atm - the HJT-36 - which has largely been a failure as well.

HAL is not a serious company.

Indian requirements should be able to sustain multiple manufacturers going forward. I don't object to private industry involvement as an alternative or competitor to HAL. I am skeptical of the view that HAL is The Problem™ such that by excising them the Indian acquisition and development process will live happily ever after. And of course on SDF we hardly need to argue the ideological point that SOE's are inherently incompetent or incapable of innovation. AMCA will be an interesting test case: no HAL, but ADA is retained as the development agency paired with innovative private industry. Surely a glorious future awaits. :cool:

Prodyut Das has written some
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on HJT-36. I do think there is something to the perspective that emerges in his writings over time that there is a lack of mutual understanding and regard between different parties e.g. lack of service understanding and appreciation of trade-offs and risks in specifying particular combinations of requirements. Then the impulse to throw to foreign consultancy at the first sign of trouble rather than reevaluating assumptions and what one is trying to achieve.
 
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Black Wolf

Junior Member
Registered Member
tejas has no capability though. its a tiny dink of a plane. r-73s look massive on it. no matter what they say it's obvious the iaf doesnt actually like the type when the chips are on the table.

the whole indian obsession with squadron count is absurd. they're not under any real military threat and they're literally squandering(-ed, its honestly already too late) their golden hour to scrap and rebuild their forces anew.
I've heard it said that the Tejas has performance similar to a MiG-21 because it was supposed to replace it. The problem is that this idea doesn't make any sense. The MiG-21 might have been decent for the IAF back when it was first purchased, but that was in the 1960s. Even by the 1980s it should have been clear that India needed something that was larger and more capable.
From a clean-sheet perspective, Gripen E/F would've been a compelling acquisition, however at the time it was considered it was still a developmental aircraft which did not enter squadron service until 2022. Plausibly that development schedule could've been compressed somewhat if India had in fact opted for it, but the point remains. Gripen C/D was the "mature" solution available and one major problem is that it clearly trod on the toes of LCA, which was not then expected to be decades away from delivering a useful capability.

In terms of acquiring a relatively modest and affordable western combat aircraft to sustain the inventory, the real missed opportunity in my view was in not doubling (tripling, quadrupling) down on Mirage 2000 in the late-90s to mid-2000s as Dassault was winding that program down in favour of Rafale. One can somewhat appreciate why it didn't happen, in that the timelines more-or-less overlap with those of Su-30MKI and state resources were limited, but in hindsight it was a mistake.

In an alternate reality where India did go down that path, IAF could today plausibly be operating hundreds of domestically manufactured M2Ks, with extensive ongoing domestic industry involvement in upgrade pathways executed at economic order quantities, with further production batches readily substituting for delays in LCA, declining availability of MiG-21, MiG-23/27, Jaguar, etc. And as an older program that was being superseded, Dassault may have been considerably more accommodating in relation to ToT and the like than they were and are for Rafale. Of course these are suppositions and one does not in fact know how the terms under which Dassault was willing to deal. It's possible that they may have been such that, on detailed examination, the prospect was unattractive. But given that Dassault was otherwise faced with the prospect of wrapping up the M2K production line without further returns, they surely would've been incentivised to negotiate in good faith. And on the Indian side of the equation, the evidence of recent decades provides little basis to think that the non-decision on M2K was the product of careful and thorough analysis and a robust decision-making process.

I think some people are missing the main point I'm trying to make. This isn't really a Gripen vs Tejas debate, nor am I suggesting Gripen was the only possible solution.

The original rationale behind the LCA program was to replace large numbers of retiring MiG-21s & eventually help offset the retirement of other legacy fleets such as the MiG-23s, MiG-27s & later Jaguars, while maintaining squadron strength through an indigenous fighter program.

Fast forward several decades & the IAF is still dealing with a significant squadron shortfall. Many of the aircraft Tejas was meant to replace have already retired, while additional stop-gap solutions continue to be explored. The fact that the IAF was even evaluating older Greek Mirage 2000s last year highlights the continued search for ways to bridge capability & fleet-size gaps.

Whether the better alternative would have been Gripen, additional Mirage 2000s, or some other path is open for debate. My point is simply that the original problem Tejas was meant to address was not just capability, but also numbers. Looking at where the IAF stands today, it's fair to question whether the overall approach delivered the force levels that were originally envisioned.

Rafale is undoubtedly a highly capable aircraft, but no air force can rely solely on a small fleet of premium fighters. Force structure requires both capability & quantity & the squadron shortage remains a reality regardless of which aircraft one prefers.
 

burritocannon

Junior Member
Registered Member
You know and I know that India is unlikely to fight a major war any time in the near future, and that it's most likely opponents, Pakistan and China, don't really want to fight it. The problem is that IAF cannot operate under that assumption. It exists to protect the country against threats, even relatively unlikely ones, and it simply doesn't have the strength to do that.
while maintaining squadron strength
this is absolutely the problem, like the iaf doesn't actually NEED to be that strong. managing the perception of domestic security is something that can be managed with domestic narratives and they should have weaned themselves off of using squadron count as their metric so that they could enjoy more flexible means of managing sentiment. let me reiterate: this is actually a ball that's in their own court.

if the chinese insisted that the plaaf had to be strong enough to bodythrow against the usaf 100% of the time they never would have gotten through the latter 20th century.
 

Lethe

Captain
I think some people are missing the main point I'm trying to make. This isn't really a Gripen vs Tejas debate, nor am I suggesting Gripen was the only possible solution.

The original rationale behind the LCA program was to replace large numbers of retiring MiG-21s & eventually help offset the retirement of other legacy fleets such as the MiG-23s, MiG-27s & later Jaguars, while maintaining squadron strength through an indigenous fighter program.

Fast forward several decades & the IAF is still dealing with a significant squadron shortfall. Many of the aircraft Tejas was meant to replace have already retired, while additional stop-gap solutions continue to be explored. The fact that the IAF was even evaluating older Greek Mirage 2000s last year highlights the continued search for ways to bridge capability & fleet-size gaps.

Whether the better alternative would have been Gripen, additional Mirage 2000s, or some other path is open for debate. My point is simply that the original problem Tejas was meant to address was not just capability, but also numbers. Looking at where the IAF stands today, it's fair to question whether the overall approach delivered the force levels that were originally envisioned.

Rafale is undoubtedly a highly capable aircraft, but no air force can rely solely on a small fleet of premium fighters. Force structure requires both capability & quantity & the squadron shortage remains a reality regardless of which aircraft one prefers.

I don't disagree with any of that. Numbers matter; LCA was meant to be the solution and LCA has failed, mostly because it is now decades late. But in considering the alternatives, we also need to reckon with how matters appeared at the time, not only how they appear to us in hindsight.

In my view, the great sin of LCA came right at the outset in wildly overestimating what could be achieved in the timeframe that was envisioned, coupled with willful disregard of existing solutions (HF-24 Marut) and institutional experience (discarding HAL in favour of setting up a new development agency, ADA, staffed by people with little relevant experience). LCA should've aimed for a solution in the general technology/risk range of J-7E to J-7G, and it should've been in service around the turn of the millennium. At the very least, the troubled path that the project was on should've been recognised by the mid-1990s, plausibly leading to a total reboot if not outright cancellation, and pursuit of alternative interim solutions for the early decades of the 21st century.
 
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Deino

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Guys, the thread's title is in fact quite simple and very clear:

Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

... and not again "I drive this topic into political BS and a penis contest!" Therefore anyone who deliberately posts old stuff. political stuff only to provoke or start again the typical stupid comparisons will get a vacation from the SDF until my school-holidays are over!

Period
 

_killuminati_

Major
Registered Member
Indian requirements should be able to sustain multiple manufacturers going forward. I don't object to private industry involvement as an alternative or competitor to HAL. I am skeptical of the view that HAL is The Problem™ such that by excising them the Indian acquisition and development process will live happily ever after. And of course on SDF we hardly need to argue the ideological point that SOE's are inherently incompetent or incapable of innovation. AMCA will be an interesting test case: no HAL, but ADA is retained as the development agency paired with innovative private industry. Surely a glorious future awaits. :cool:
HAL alone by itself may have been the problem. Emergence of new competitors should make it either fix itself by discarding their old defective doctrines or permanently phase out of this field (specifically for big programs).
 

Gloire_bb

Colonel
Registered Member
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Astra Mk.1ER - as half step to Mk.2. adds Higher energy fuel (from mk.2?) and trajectory optimization to reach ~160 Dmax*. Reasonable, I guess.

*Though for original Astra top declared range that was for really generous launch conditions, like H0=15km.

Though in general I personally dislike Astra. They choose one-size-fits-all weapon(Amraamski), when in reality it doesn't fit well almost anywhere on their fleet.

Too large for Tejas family, too small to make full use of MKI, won't fit on Rafale.
 
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Nilou

Junior Member
Registered Member
Squadron count is fine - India has cheap wages and a lot of people, using that is their advantage. They should be adopting Soviet air tactics. Moreover in an indo-pakistani war, short range is not an issue.

India needs to develop a simple, cheap, reliable aircraft. An F-5 or a Mig-21 analogue. It will seem like a step backwards, but it is what indian industry actually needs to make, as that is what they can actually make. It may look like a setp backwards, but it will actually help india move forwards in the long run.
 
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